Pope Francis urges Trump to respect “status quo” in Jerusalem..Trump recognises Jerusalem as Israel’s capital

Israeli flags fly near the Dome of the Rock in the Al-Aqsa mosque compound on December 5, 2017.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/12/06/pope-francis-urges-trump-to-respect-status-quo-in-jerusalem/

Pope Francis has stated his “concern” over US president Donald Trump’s expected decision to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

The Pope said he “cannot keep silent” over the “situation that has arisen in recent days”, and called for respect for the “status quo of the city, in accordance with the relevant resolutions of the United Nations”.

“Jerusalem is a unique city, sacred to Jews, Christians and Muslims, who venerate the Holy Places of their respective religions, and has a special vocation to peace.

“I pray to the Lord that this identity would be preserve and strengthened for the benefit of the Holy Land, the Middle East and the whole world and that wisdom and prudence would prevail, to avoid adding new elements of tension in a world already shaken and marked by many cruel conflicts.”

http://www.smh.com.au/world/donald-trump-recognises-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-in-reversal-of-policy-20171206-h00884.html

President Donald Trump reversed decades of US policy on Wednesday and recognised Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, despite warnings from around the world that the gesture further drives a wedge between Israel and the Palestinians.

In a speech at the White House, Trump said his administration would also begin a process of moving the US embassy in Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, which is expected to take years.

The status of Jerusalem – home to sites holy to the Muslim, Jewish and Christian religions – has been one of the thorniest issues in long-running Middle East peace efforts.

Israel considers the city its eternal and indivisible capital and wants all embassies based there. Palestinians want the capital of an independent Palestinian state to be in the city’s eastern sector, which Israel captured in the 1967 Middle East war and annexed in a move never recognised internationally.

Trump’s decision is likely to please his core supporters – Republican conservatives and evangelical Christians who comprise an important share of his political base.

Trump aides contend the move reflects the reality of Jerusalem as the centre of Jewish faith and the fact that the city is the seat of the Israeli government.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.827208

Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte expressed interest in moving his country’s embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, Channel 1 news reported on Wednesday, a day after U.S. President Donald Trump announced his intention to relocate the U.S. embassy.

According to the report, the Czech Republic expressed interest in moving their embassy to Jerusalem as well.

Trump told Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and Jordan’s King Abdullah II that he plans to move the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem on Tuesday, according to Abbas’ spokesman and Jordanian reports. Trump also called Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Egyptian President Abdel-Fattah al-Sissi and Saudi King Salman to inform them of the decision.

————

well he did it..

and we await the fall out..at this stage it hasnt developed beyond some injuries..will it spark intifada part 3?

will other nations join the usa?

3000 years eh?

401

~ by seeker401 on December 8, 2017.

375 Responses to “Pope Francis urges Trump to respect “status quo” in Jerusalem..Trump recognises Jerusalem as Israel’s capital”

  1. Zionism – Do today’s Jews have a right to the Adamah Qodesh (Holy Land)?

    One argument we hear now is that those who call themselves Jews today have an inherent right to the land of the Abrahamic covenant, because they are the chosen people. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu (whose family name before its Hebraic obfuscation was Mileikowsky), continues to insist that Israel is “the nation state of one people only – the Jewish people – and of no other people.”*
    Let us see if there is any scriptural reason that this is true.
    Establishing “Jewishness”
    Bemidbar (Numbers) 35:30
    Whoso kills any person, the murderer shall be put את eth-to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.
    Devariym (Deuteronomy) 19:15
    One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sins: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
    Philo wrote the following:
    He (Mosheh) added a splendid rule when he ordained a single person’s testimony to be inadmissible. First, because it is possible for a single person to see wrongly or hear wrongly or understand wrongly or be deceived. Secondly, because it is most unjust to make use of a single witness against more than one or even against one; against more than one because they are more worthy of victory than one, against one because the witness has no preponderance in respect of number, but the equal is compatible with advantage. For why should one agree with the witness who details a case against somebody else rather than with the accused who speaks about himself? It is best, it would seem, to suspend judgment when neither side lacks or excels in anything.
    Yocephus (Josephus) wrote as follows:
    A single witness should not be trusted but three or at least two, whose testimony their past lives shall prove true. But if a false witness has been believed, let him be convicted and suffer what he against whom testimony was borne was about to suffer.
    However, let the law of Babylonian Judaism govern the matter for establishing Jewishness:
    Mishnah Yebamoth 15:4
    One witness says, He (the husband) is dead, and she (the wife) marries, and another comes and says, He is not dead, in this case she need not be put away; one witness says, He is dead, and two say, He is not dead, even if she married (before the second testimony) she must be put away. Two say, He is dead, and one witness says, He is not dead, even if she did not remarry (before the second testimony), she may marry.
    This concept is further delineated in the Besorah Yahuchanon, when the Parashiym (the progenitors of modern Babylonian Judaism) denounce HAMASHIACH as a false witness:
    Yahuchanon (John) 8:12-18
    Then YAHUSHA spoke again to them, saying: I am the light of the world: he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. 13 The Parashiym therefore said to him: You bear record of yourself; your record is not true. 14 YAHUSHA answered and said to them: Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and where I go; but you cannot tell whence I come, and where I go. 15 You judge after the flesh; I judge no man. 16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 17 It is also written in the statutes, describing that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am one that bears witness of myself, and the Father that sent me bears witness of me.
    Let it therefore be well understood that the Parashiym (Pharisees) do not hold the witness of one to be a true record – such a record is not true. Howbeit, then, that the Jewish rabbis are those who would determine if a Jew is Jewish? As a matter of Jewish law, this should be rejected as an untrue record. Only by the testimony of two objective parties should we be able to make a determination as to who is Jewish and who isn’t.
    For instance, one person who claims to be Jewish asserts his DNA, and then requires a similar DNA for another to be considered Jewish. But is that verified by the testimony of two non-Jewish witnesses? The answer in the modern world is: no, it isn’t.
    (And we note for the record, that many who point to a Jewish lineage claim to be coheniym (priests) and descendants of Aharon, who of course, was Leviyiy and not Yahudiy (Jewish). We find almost no one claiming to be Binyamiyn (the ravening wolf) and one wonders why.)
    Until such a time as objective protocols are established which can actually ascertain a particular Jewish DNA pedigree with peer-reviewed, and verifiable conclusions through scientific experimentation and replication of results, the claim of a Jewish heritage is insufficient as a matter of international law to warrant acceptance into the Avrahamic covenant. For if you bear record of yourself; your record is not true.
    What is a Jew?
    Netanyahu insists that the Adamah Qodesh should only be inhabited by Jews. But, that begs the question, doesn’t it: what is a Jew?
    We have several possible answers to this question. One answer is of course, those who practice Judaism. But there again, that begs yet another question: what form of Judaism? There is of course, modern Orthodox, Chasidism, Haredi, Yemenite, Karaite, Masorti, Humanistic, Classical Reform, Neolog, Jewish Renewal, Jewish Scientific, Beta Israel, Heterodox Messianic, and Reconstructivist Judaism. All of these are correct/incorrect (you chose) forms of Judaism. Which practice qualifies?
    Do the practitioners of Judaism have a birthright to the Adamah Qodesh by means of their practice? The answer is categorically no. First, let us consider the origins of Judaism. Contrary to the claims of those practicing Judaism, Judaism is not (with the exception of Karaite Judaism) Torah-centric; rather, Judaism begins with the creation of the Talmud, a documentation which greatly adds to the Torah of YAH – in violation of the express commands of the Torah, and which is anathema to the kingdom of David, the kingdom of the heirs of David, and the Kingdom of MASHIACH who denounced this practice.
    Devariym (Deuteronomy) 12:32
    את eth What thing soever I command you, guard to do it: you shall not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
    Initially, Judaism’s origins can be traced to the Yerushalmi Talmud, also called the Palestinian Talmud or the Talmud Eretz Yisrael (Talmud of the Land of Israel). We note that historically, the name Palestinian Talmud, has been abandoned, because of course, it demonstrates an historical basis for the name Palestina, or Palestine. This Talmud is shorter than the Bavli, and is considered less authoritative than the Babylonian Talmud (the origin of which is circa 380 A.D.), which is the controlling dogma of modern Judaism.
    The word Talmud itself is often defined as “instruction” and in Judaism, exceeds the instruction of the Torah. The Yerushalmi Talmud comprises of two parts, the Mishnah, which was finalized by Judah the Prince around the year 200 A.D., and either the Babylonian or the Yerushalmi Gemara. The Yerushalmi Gemara is primarily written in Palestinian Aramaic.
    This “instruction” is explicitly rejected by MASHIACH in Mattithyahu (Matthew) 23, among other places in the Besor’oth (Gospels).
    Modern Judaism forms around the instruction of the Amalekite Rabbi Akiva, his disciple Yochai, (first and second century A.D.) and the redevelopment or restatement of the Yerushalmi Talmud in Babylon by the Masorites in the fourth century A.D. It is redefined and further developed by the works of Maimonides (RamBam) and the Rabbi Shem Tov, later in the midst of the second millennium A.D.
    How do the practitioners of a Babylonian theology created in the fourth century A.D. obtain a birthright to the Adamah Qodesh? Do they obtain this right because they call themselves Yahudiy? Weren’t they, and aren’t they, the descendants of those who did not return from Babylon to the Adamah Qodesh during the time of Ezra?
    What legal claim do the Yahudiym have to the land?
    We hear repeatedly that the Jews are the chosen people. However, this is simply not true, because it is the seed of Yashar’el who are called the firstborn of YAHUAH.
    Yovheliym (Jubilees) 2:21
    And I have chosen the seed of Ya`aqov from amongst all that I have seen, and have written him down as my firstborn son, and have sanctified him to myself forever and ever; and I will teach them the Shabbath, that they may guard the Shabbath thereon from all work.
    Was Yahudah the only seed of Ya’aqov? No, there were 12 sons, and the twin sons of Yoceph, the eleventh son, succeeded to his birthright.
    Did Yahudah receive the birthright to the land given to Avraham? Let’s see.
    Divrei Hayamiym Ri’shon (1 Chronicles) 16:14 -18
    He is YAHUAH ELOHAYNU; his judgments are in all the earth. 15 Be you mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand ages; 16 Even of the covenant which he cut with את eth-Avraham, and of his oath to Yitscha`aq; 17 And has confirmed the same to Ya`aqov for a law, and to Yashar’el for an everlasting covenant, 18 Saying: Unto you will I give the land of Kena`an, the lot of your inheritance;
    So, we see here that the covenant given to Avraham, became an oath to Yitscha`aq, which became a law to Ya`aqov, and an everlasting covenant to Yashar’el. The self-proclaimed Yahudiym think this covenant belongs exclusively to them; and they also lay exclusive claim to the Hebrew language, the name of YAHUAH, and the blessing; yet scripturally, the birthright did not pass to the Yahudiym.
    Divrei Hayamiym Ri’shon (1 Chronicles) 5:1
    NOW the sons of Re’uven the firstborn of Yashar’el, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father’s bed, his birthright was given to the sons of Yoceph the son of Yashar’el: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
    Citizen Yahud
    If a practitioner of Babylonian Judaism has no lawful claim to the Adamah Qodesh by means of his or her adherence to those reforms and traditions, does a person who can link their DNA to the last citizens of Yahud have a lawful claim to the land?
    There is a blind claim that if you are Jewish by race – a claim which cannot be established as a matter of science and law by anyone claiming to be Jewish by race, because such a testimony is false according to the record of the Parashiym – that such person has a lawful right to the land which lies between the Yardan (Jordan) river and the Mediterranean Sea in respect of the land grants given by Joshua (spelled in the Ivriyt Yahusha). Let’s examine this claim.
    First, the tribe of Yahudah (Judah) had no claim at all over Jerusalem, because this land was assigned to Binyamiym (Benjamin). Yahudah was given the land surrounding Chevron (Hebron and to the coasts of Gaza), where there was a record of the purchase of the cave by Avraham. To claim Jerusalem, and the lands of the other 12 tribes, the Yahudiym then have to broaden their tent to claim that the word Jew meant all twelve tribes; but this claim is false, because only those members of those tribes who ascribe to the Babylonian theology will be considered as Jews by the Jews, notwithstanding any mountain of proof which might be supplied to establish an inheritance in one of the other tribes of Yashar’el.
    So, the modern Jews claim a land grant which belongs to the other tribes, based on a birthright which by inheritance belongs to Ephrayim and Menashsheh, and not to Yahudah, based upon that land which was seized by acts of violence under the tenure of David, expanded by Shalomah (Solomon), divided by the hand of YAH into two kingdoms, the northern kingdom of which was overtly divorced by YAHUAH (Yirmeyahu [Jeremiah] 3) in 722 B.C. and the southern kingdom whose line of kings was terminated in the life of Yekonyahu, and whose kingdom was brought to utter desolation in 135 A.D. when the citizens were permanently expelled from the Adamah Qodesh.
    Mishlei (Proverbs) 30:4
    Who has ascended up into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, if you can tell?
    Following the division of the kingdom as a result of Shalomah’s apostasy, the line of kings in the Davidic kingdom became interrupted.
    Mattithyahu (Matthew) 1:11
    And Yo’shiyahu begat את eth-Yekonyahu and את eth-his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babel:
    This ended the practice of naming the citizens of this kingdom with the suffix yahu, and began the process of Babylonianization (yes, the word has been coined here). However, there was a legal reality created prior to the expulsion which is recorded under the Besorah Yahuchanon which remains true to this day.
    Yahuchanon (John) 19:1-5
    THEN Pilate therefore took YAHUSHA, and scourged him. 2 And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe, 3 And said: Hail, King of the Yahudiym! and they smote him with their hands. 4 Pilate therefore went forth again, and said to them: Behold, I bring him forth to you, that you may know that I find no fault in him. 5 Then YAHUSHA came forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate said to them: Behold the Man!
    YAHUSHA is presented by the authority of the Roman government held in Pontius Pilate as the King of the Yahudiym (Jews), wearing a crown (wreath) and a purple robe (a color banned by Shim`on Maqqabiy (Maccabee) (as belonging only to royalty). This presentation created his kingship under Roman law, although it was subject to reversal by an equal oral decree. This would change with that which would follow:
    Yahuchanon (John) 19:13-19
    When Pilate therefore heard that saying: he brought YAHUSHA forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Ivriyt, Gabbatha. 14 And it was the preparation of the Pecach, and about the sixth hour: and he said to the Yahudiym: Behold your King! 15 But they cried out: Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate said to them: Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered: We have no king but Qeycar. 16 Then delivered he him therefore to them to be crucified. And they took YAHUSHA, and led him away. 17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Ivriyt Gugoleth: 18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and YAHUSHA in the midst. 19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, YAHUSHA THE NETSERIY AND KING OF THE YAHUDIYM.
    If there is any residual citizenship in the whole of the Davidic Kingdom, it is under the throne of David; which is in fact established as a matter of Roman law and recorded in the Besor’oth, where the Roman authority Pilate presents YAHUSHA as king, dressed in purple and wearing a wreath of thorns. He later places a sign over his head establishing in writing under Roman law the appointment of YAHUSHA as King of the Yahudiym (in this case, the citizens of the Davidic Kingdom). Mattithyahu 1 establishes YAHUSHA’S lineage in direct line to David and Shalomah, and the sign in Hebrew which Pilate placed over his head establishing him as the lawful king and heir read thusly:
    יהושע
    הנצרי
    ומלך
    היהודים
    The acronym in Latin: INRS, in Greek, INBS, and in Hebrew, YHVH. To be a citizen of the Davidic Kingdom requires allegiance to this king, the heir, and the son. Everyone else does not enter through the gate, but comes in some other way. Yahuchanon (John) 10:1. Luqas (Luke) 13:24; Yahuchanon (John) 10:9;
    So, two things occurred here as a matter of law. One, YAHUSHA was enthroned as the King of the Yahudiym – his rightful inheritance, and one entirely possible because he is the seed of the woman, and not of the fallen DNA of Menashsheh (yes, his blood is divine, and not the blood of a human sacrifice) – as a matter of Roman law by oral decree, presentment and written decree in the three languages of the Empire controlling in the land of Yahud: Latin, Greek, and Hebrew.
    The second thing that happened is that the citizens of Yahud, under the authority of their religious leaders, including the high priests of the Sanhedrin, the Sadducees and Pharisees, proclaimed that they had no king but Caesar. They said it, and in 31 A.D., YAHUAH and his RUACH left the building the Yahudiym called the Temple, and in 70 A.D. every single stone of it was removed. Since that day, it has not been rebuilt, and for those of you who excel at math, that was one thousand, nine hundred forty-seven years ago.
    So, let’s be perfectly succinct. At the point this declaration was made, all citizenship in an independent nation or kingdom of Yahud was terminated voluntarily by those who had clamored to follow the Palestinian Talmud claiming the era of the Torah was dead, and they voluntarily and by their own declaration came under the authority of Rome, where they remain today.
    We have no king but Caesar!
    If you have no king but Caesar, to whom do you bring your petition to repopulate the land of the Avrahamic covenant over which YAH has established the throne of David? As a matter of law, you cannot reclaim citizenship in Yahud, when you voluntarily acquiesced to Rome. You cannot claim a birthright to the Adamah Qodesh, because that was given to Ephrayim and Menashsheh. You cannot claim a right by inheritance to the land grants given to the other 12 tribes. Your legal rights to the land were terminated out of your own mouths – a statement by the way, which is affirmed every day by those of your allegiance who pay homage to Rome at the foundation of its dominion over Jerusalem expressed in the stones of the Fortress Antonia known as the Western Wall.
    Therefore, we can conclude that until we have two independent witnesses as to the heritage of every person, which can link to substantiated DNA from ancient specimens of the various tribes, no claim to Jewish lineage by DNA should be accepted as legally binding upon any nation as a matter of law.
    Further, we can conclude that membership in the religion of Judaism in any of its forms, remains under the control of the Roman Caesars and their lawful successors-in-interest, namely, the Popes in their respective succession, and therefore and right of return may only be legally understood as a privilege of return which can be granted or denied at any time only by the Pope, the successor of the Caesars.
    Further, even if a person can substantiate their hereditary lineage as a member of the tribe of Yahudah, Binyamiyn, or Leviy, such person would have no legal claim to anything more than the original land grant given by Yahusha (Joshua), and even that land grant would be subservient to the ultimate ownership of Ephrayim and Menashsheh, who by the authority of the scripture, hold the birthright. We note for purposes of this article, that those who claim political authority over the nation of Israel have intentionally given Gaza – a portion of the land grant given to Yahudah, – and the West Bank area called Judea (to include Hebron and Bethlehem) to the Palestinian authority, again denying a right of return even to the true Yahudiym to their true homeland. You might recall Jews being expelled from Gaza under Ariel Sharon, having their houses torn down and being offered nothing in return.
    This is the lawful condition of one who calls himself a Yahudiy in respect of the Adamah Qodesh (Holy Land) as set forth in scripture. In short, there is no scriptural authority for the proposition that those who call themselves Jews have a lawful right to the Adamah Qodesh. They don’t, and Zionism – particularly of the sort proclaimed by Netanyahu – should be completely rejected as a matter of international law.

    http://www.cepher.net/blog.aspx?post=4256&title=Zionism—Do-today

  2. The ‘first’ church inside Jerusalem?

      • thanks, Rev.

        History channel -cough/cough…= MSM d.o.c.

        min. 3,30:

        – “and out of nowhere there comes all that astonishing material” (the dead see scrolls…1948…ejem…ejem…what a coincidence…)

        – “the essens…they are messianic…they don-t turn the other cheek…they don-t love their enemies…they wish a final apocalyptic judgement on all the people who are destroying Palestine, the Israelits and all the people around it” …lol, is this jewish professor talking once again about a Yahweh (the blood thirsty God of the chosen once) d.o.c. followers?

        …the message of the video, all 15 minutes of it, is: Jesus and his movement were 100% jewish, but the malicious Paul and his church conspiracy decided to suppress the jewish character of christianity…lol…the typical ((they)) victimism displayed once again…yawn.

        • There is something about those ‘Paulines’ which are quite revealing..
          Pauline – never heard of that term before … paulites? 🙂

        • sorry Maria .. you don’t get it

        • ‘Jesus and his movement were 100% jewish’ .. first of all Jesus was not a Jew .. neither was he a Christian nor did He start a Jewish movement nor a Christian movement .. nor was He ‘Jesus’ .. He was a Hebrew of the tribe of Judah an authentic descendant of Jacob/Israel .. His authentic Hebrew name Yahshua and His movement was 100% Hebrew .. they were known as Nazarenes not Christians .. He did not start a new religion .. He came to fulfill the teaching of Moses and the Prophets .. He observed the Sabbath and kept the 7 feasts as practiced by Moses and taught His disciples to do the same ..

          During the period of Maccabees the Essenes abandoned the temple .. there is no doubt Yahshua and John the Baptist were Essenes .. the similarities between Yahshua’s teaching and those found in the Dead Sea Scrolls are indisputable .. John the Baptist was the last high priest .. a voice crying in the wilderness .. the only one with the authority to baptize the Messiah as practiced by the Essenes .. the communal way of life described in the book of acts came from the Essenes who held all things in common.

          if you don’t understand the difference between Jews and Hebrews .. you must believe the ‘Jews’ are who they claim to be .. don’t confuse ‘Jews’ with descendants of Jacob .. nor Christians with Nazarenes .. those known as Christians abandoned the Sabbath and the 7 Feasts in submission to Hadrian under Marcus of Jerusalem ..

          Marcus of Jerusalem: Apostolic successor or apostate?

          The first fifteen bishops of Jerusalem were all circumcised Jews; and the congregation over which they presided united the law of Moses with the doctrine of Christ. …

          The Nazarenes retired from the ruins of Jerusalem to the little town of Pella beyond the Jordan, where that ancient church languished above sixty years in solitude and obscurity. …

          Because of the Jewish revolt, Emperor Hadrian outlawed many practices considered to be Jewish. The 20th century historian Salo W. Barron wrote:
          Hadrian…According to rabbinic sources, he prohibited public gatherings for instruction in Jewish law, forbade the proper observance of the Sabbath and holidays and outlawed many important rituals (Barron SW. Social and Religious History of the Jews, Volume 2: Christian Era: the First Five Centuries. Columbia University Press, 1952, p. 107).
          The Christians in Judea were forced to make a decision. They either could continue to keep the Sabbath and the rest of God’s law and flee, or they could compromise and support a religious leader (Marcus) who would not keep the Sabbath, etc. Sadly, many who claimed Christ made the wrong choice.
          The Orthodox seem to acknowledge that a change came, but they are a but guarded about it. Notice this admission:
          In 135 AD the Roman emperor Hadrian builds on the ruins of Jerusalem a new roman city and names it Aelia Capitolina and permits the Christians to come back. However the Jewish are not permitted to come in town (The Greek Orthodox Patriarchate in Jerusalem. http://www.holylight.gr/patria/enpatria.html viewed 11/30/07).
          The “Jewish are not permitted to come in to town”?
          That’s correct in a sense. Those who kept Jewish practices like the seventh-day Sabbath were not permitted to come into Jerusalem after its 135 A.D. takeover. Thus, without admitting it, the Orthodox are acknowledging that changes did take place after 135 A.D. and those changes are proof that there was no faithful apostolic succession in Jerusalem…

          When the name and honours of the church of Jerusalem had been restored to Mount Sion, the crimes of heresy and schism were imputed to the obscure remnant of the Nazarenes which refused to accompany their Latin bishop.

          http://www.cogwriter.com/marcus-of-jerusalem.htm

          • “He observed the Sabbath and kept the 7 feasts as practiced by Moses and taught His disciples to do the same ..”

            He did not teach His disciples to do the same. Jesus was under the law in order to fulfill the law in His righteous living, which no man but Him being the God-man could do, for He is the Savior born of the virgin Mary. He is God Himself who in His humiliation took on the form of a man being God who is also very man. He could have sent angels or destroyed His enemies Himself, but that was not God’s – His – purpose at the time. The feast days pointed to the coming Christ. When He came their instruction was no longer needed for He came. Their continued use, or suggestion of continued use, denies He came, denies He lived righteously in our place, denies He died on the cross in our place, and denies His rising from the dead being the declaration of His righteousness and our future resurrection hope. We will never be Him, because He is God and He came, so the Mosaic ceremonies end.

        • Paul was arrested as a leader of the Nazarenes not as a leader of the Christians .. in his defense he admitted to being a Nazarene and honoring the Torah of Moses and the Prophets ..

          After five days the high priest Ananias came down with some elders, with an attorney named Tertullus, and they brought charges to the governor against Paul. 2 After Paul had been summoned, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying to the governor …

          For we have found this man a real pest and a fellow who stirs up dissension among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes…

          When the governor had nodded for him to speak, Paul responded:

          But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;

          Acts 24

          If you think the 7 Feasts are ‘Jewish’ feasts then you believe the Jews are who they claim to be .. it is clear Paul observed the Feasts commanded by Moses .. although the words .. ‘I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem’ .. have been removed from many translations

          And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow. 19 And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews. 20 When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not; 21 but bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. Acts 18

        • well, Rev. I really try to “get it”:

          – we all know that the term “jew” was first used during the medieval ages, i.e. was unknown by the times of Jesus. curiously enough, the “great” jew professor/s (there were two of them) from the video about the essens and the dead see scrolls were keep saying “the jews” vs. “the christians” (of Paul);
          who is making the mess here? is it made intentionally on the divulgative History channel?

          – “I have often thought Paul had some psychological disorder” + your quotation of the Acts, you use as an argument that Paul was just a Yahweh (Torah) follower…

          do you think that what the 72 first apostles preached during the 1 c. a.d., Paul included,

          was the Torah and the veneration of Yahweh?

          “The first fifteen bishops of Jerusalem were all circumcised Jews; and the congregation over which they presided united the law of Moses with the doctrine of Christ. …”

          so do you say that the only genuine Christian movement/fate/religion was the one of Jerusalem?? do you say that the peoples who were embracing Jesus’ teachings all over the roman empire in the 1 c. a.d. were embracing the traditions of the Torah as well?

          IMHO that was not the case.

          about Paul having defended himself from the jewish persecution, cited in the Acts…what if the main purpose of the christian/Jesus’ idea on that very early stage was just to survive in order to be able to propagate and so Jesus’ teachings could reach as many people/s as possible? would have been better for the cause a murdered by the jewish/hebrew? priests Paul or a Paul being a missionaries as he was indeed?

          I still can-t swallow the thesis of that video according to which the essens (and so Jesus) were patriotic revolutionaries who, quote, “they wish a final apocalyptic judgement on all the people who are destroying Palestine, the Israelits and all the people around it” …lol, I’m sorry. sound much as Hasbara to me….

          • even Wikipedia gets it .. again eliminate the word ‘Jew’ .. we are speaking of Hebrews .. the Hebrew believers in the Messiah ..

            According to most scholars, the followers of Jesus were composed principally from apocalyptic Jewish sects during the late Second Temple period of the 1st century. Some Early Christian groups were strictly Jewish, such as the Ebionites and the early-church leaders in Jerusalem, collectively called Jewish Christians. During this period, they were led by James the Just. According to Acts 9:1-2, they described themselves as ‘disciples of the Lord’ and [followers] ‘of the Way’,
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Age

            Jewish Christians, also Hebrew Christians or Judeo-Christians, were the original members of the Jewish movement that later became Christianity.[1] In the earliest stage the community was made up of all those Jews who accepted Jesus as a venerable person or the Messiah (Christ). As Christianity grew and developed, Jewish Christians became only one strand of the early Christian community, characterised by combining the confession of Jesus as Christ with continued adherence to Jewish traditions such as Sabbath observance, observance of the Jewish calendar, observance of Jewish laws and customs, circumcision, and synagogue attendance, and by a direct genetic relationship to the earliest Jewish Christians.
            The term “Jewish Christian” appears in historical texts contrasting Christians of Jewish origin with Gentile Christians, both in discussion of the New Testament church[2][3] and the second and following centuries.[4] It is also a term used for Jews who converted to Christianity but kept their Jewish heritage and traditions.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian

            The Nazarenes originated as a sect of first-century Judaism. The first use of the term “sect of the Nazarenes” is in the Book of Acts in the New Testament, where Paul is accused of being a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes (“πρωτοστάτην τε τῆς τῶν Ναζωραίων αἱρέσεως”).[1] Then, the term simply designated followers of “Yeshua Natzri” (Jesus the Nazarene), as the Hebrew term נוֹצְרִי (nôṣrî) still does, but in the first to fourth centuries, the term was used for a sect of followers of Jesus who were closer to Judaism than most Christians.[2] They are described by Epiphanius of Salamis and are mentioned later by Jerome and Augustine of Hippo.[3][4] The writers made a distinction between the Nazarenes of their time and the “Nazarenes” mentioned in Acts 24:5, where Paul the Apostle is accused before Felix at Caesarea (the capital of Roman Judaea) by Tertullus.[5]

            The name Nazaraios is the standard Greek spelling in the New Testament for a man from Nazareth; the plural Nazaraioi means “men from Nazareth” (see Nazarene (title)).[7] The title Nazarenes, “men from Nazareth,” is first applied to the Christians by Tertullus (Acts 24:5), though Herod Agrippa II (Acts 26:28) uses the term “Christians” which had first been used at Antioch (Acts 11:26). The name used by Tertullus survives into Rabbinic and modern Hebrew as notzrim (נוצרים) a standard Hebrew term for “Christian”, and also into the Quran and modern Arabic as nasara (plural of nasrani “Christians”).
            Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 220, Against Marcion, 4:8) records that the Jews called Christians “Nazarenes” from Jesus being a man of Nazareth, though he also makes the connection with Nazarites in Lamentations 4:7.[8] Jerome too records that “Nazarenes” was employed of Christians in the synagogues.[9] Eusebius, around 311 AD, records that the name “Nazarenes” had formerly been used of Christians.[10][11] The use relating to a specific “sect” of Christians does not occur until Epiphanius.[12] According to Ehrhardt, just as Antioch coined the term Christians, so Jerusalem coined the term Nazarenes, from Jesus of Nazareth.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_(sect)

            I am convinced the original community of believers were Essenes .. there were three known Essene communities, one in Qumran, one in Egypt and one in Nazareth .. they observed the Sabbath and the Torah .. why do you have a problem with it ?? .. The ‘Jews’ would have you believe it belongs to them ..

            For me the Torah is the Ten Commandments .. they are the Constitution of the Kingdom of God .. under which the right to life and property are guaranteed and protected .. The ‘Jews’ would have you believe otherwise ..

            What is the Torah?

            http://www.cepher.net/blog.aspx?post=3646&title=What-is-the-Torah

            • “For me the Torah is the Ten Commandments…”

              Well for you yes, but the Torah are the teachings and practices that include the Ten Commandments but the Torah is further expounded in the Pentateuch, Wisdom books, Historical books, and proclaimed by the Prophets all fully revealed in the Person and Word of Christ. The Ten Commandments are absolutely to be followed, but fallen man will not perfectly follow the moral law that was with Adam in the Garden, known by the heart of man and God’s continued presence from Adam to Noah to Abraham and recapitulated at Mt. Sinai.

              Regenerated man, for unregenerate man despises the kindness of God, who has the blessings accomplished by Christ and applied into their life by the Holy Spirit will not be perfect until the new creation is complete where sin and death will be no more. The regenerate though do live the newness of life and walk before God as instructed in the Ten Commandments, but praise be to God in His mercy when we, believers, fail, and God picks us right back up with loving care so we do not despair. We continue to turn toward Him in holy worship, unlike unbelievers who have no reverence for Him and do not turn to honor Him. As believers continually rely upon God to create us into the new creatures due to the blessings merited by Christ in our place, then we live in the time of transition toward the new creation we will fully live out in our own lives and new heavens which have no sin and no death.

              Upon that great and wonderful day when our looking to Him will be fully unwavering, we will continually recognize the fullness of just how great and majestic the God who created and redeemed really is. Even unbelievers will know who He is and will be given their selfish desires to their full, as they have desired to be without God so shall they be. They want a life without God and His way, so shall they have. They will know despairingly and completely what such an existence really is like in His wrath. Yet His people, believers in Christ and what He did in our place, will enjoy the bliss and love of the Almighty God who is merciful and just, for they accept His kindness on our behalf and enjoy the love that He offers for them in Christ.

            • “the essen communities … they observed the Sabbath and the Torah .. why do you have a problem with it ?? ”

              I don-t have any problem with that at all.

              My “lol” comes when the today jews claim Jesus’ teachings were 100% jewish (Rev, claim to those israeli professors the lexics hygiene, not to me) and that the mad/bad Paul (hebrew/jew himself) invented something different from the original teachings of Jesus (quote “a revolutionary who did not preached “turn the other cheek”, or “love your enemy” but wanted to fight whoever did bad to israelits and palestina”, end quote…^%$%#…So the mad/bad Paul dared to teach “what he invented” as if it came from Jesus to the non-jewish – the majority of the to-be-future christian peoples as God’s teachings.

              Paul is treated as what we know today in similar circumstances as a “self-hating jew”…
              do you get now where my “lol” comes from, Rev?

              the map I posted above clearly shows the universality of the teachings of Jesus, since those teachings very naturally found fertile soil among a great variety of peoples with great variety of preexistent believes. by embracing the apostolic teachings those peoples certainly did not convert into new jews/hebrews…

              • my point in posting the video is to suggest where the original faith in the Messiah started .. the two Jews no doubt have their own agenda

                • agree on both..

                  • Nazareth, Nazarene, Northern Essene

                    http://www.plaza1.net/Anthony/TheNazareneWay.pdf

                  • Jesus was an Essene and Nazareth did not Exist.

                    https://lostchristianity.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/jesus-was-an-essene-and-nazareth-did-not-exist/

                    • GREAT!
                      “The truth is Christians have to come to grips that Christianity didn’t fall out the sky, it was already here before the birth of Jesus in the form of the Nazarene Essenes.”

                      …so very much agree on that!…the rebirth of a forgotten knowledge / buried by primitive cultures ancient knowledge…that comes from a tradition thousand of years before year 0 a.d.

                      “sect of the Essenes. They opposed commands to sacrifice animals as found in the law of Moses saying it was a book of fiction. We have also seen biblical evidence that God never commanded the people to sacrifice animals, this confirms what the Nazarenes believed. The Nazarenes also opposed eating meat, and we saw from the writings of the early church father that the pillars of the faith were strict vegetarians.”

                      what does that recall?

                      “Pythagoras created one of the first and most prominent recorded legacy of western vegetarianism. He talked about the idea of animals, like humans, having a soul and that reincarnation can go in either direction. So having a meatless diet is a simple way of making life easier for more sentient beings. Also the universal observation where animal killing is unhealthy and makes people easier with the acceptance of killing each other. ”

                      https://sanjindumisic.com/pythagoras-greco-buddhism-vegetarianism-and-reincarnation/

                      …and it goes much back into the millennia…

                  • Maria, scripture encourages us to question everything and search for truth and expose lies and deception and I encourage you to continue regardless of those who would impose their doctrine as truth ..

                    The Character of the Bereans
                    10As soon as night had fallen, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went into the Jewish synagogue. 11Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if these teachings were true. 12As a result, many of them believed, along with quite a few prominent Greek women and men.…
                    Berean Study Bible .. Acts 17

                    the similarities between Pyrhhus: The Fool of Hope bu Plutarch and writings concerning Paul raises some questions as to authenticity .. does it not ???

                    The original Latin Vulgate was commissioned in 382 by Pope Damasus I. The modern version is not the original version created by Jerome; it is the result of combining a variety of sources that include Jerome. It is, however, one of the earliest sources for the original texts. Therefore, it seems safe to conclude that Luke’s original story included the name, Sopater Pyrrhus Beroea.

                    From: http://www.e-classics.com/pyrrhus.htm (Pyrhhus: The Fool of Hope bu Plutarch)

                    Plutarch wrote: “Many men came from Beroea to Demetrius’ army, praising Pyrrhus as an invincible warrior, who was kind to his prisoners. Pyrrhus also sent some agents, who pretended to be Macedonians. These spies spread the suggestion that now the time had come to be liberated from the harsh rule of Demetrius by joining Pyrrhus, who was a gracious friend of soldiers…The Macedonians cheered and left their ranks to unite their fortune to that of Pyrrhus. As his army crumbled in mutiny, Demetrius put on a disguise and sneaked off to safety. And so, without fighting, Pyrrhus became King of Macedonia.”

                    Luke wrote: Acts 19:38: “If therefore Demetrius and the craftsmen with him have a complaint…” and Acts 20:1-6: “After the uproar ceased, Paul sent for the disciples and having exhorted them took leave of them and departed for Macedonia. When he had gone through these parts and given them much encouragement, he came to Greece. There he spent three months, and when a plot was made against him by the Jews as he was about to set sail for Syria, he determined to return through Macedonia. Sopater son of Pyrrhus of Beroea accompanied him; and of the Thessalonians, Aristarchus and Secundus; and Gaius of Derbe, and Timothy; and the Asians, Tychicus and Trophimus. These went on and were waiting for us at Troas, but we sailed away from Philippi after the days of Unleavened Bread, and in five days we came to them at Troas, where we stayed for seven days.”

                    http://thenazareneway.com/The%20Gospel%20of%20Paul.htm

                • No doubt Peter and Paul do not have their own agenda. They have the consistence one message and one agenda of the one God.

              • 16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” …
                7 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
                18 Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; 19 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
                20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be [j]complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property. Matthew 19

                Most assuredly Yahshua taught keeping the Commandments / Torah were necessary and in fact went further encouraging the young man to sell all his possessions and give the money to the poor as the Essenes taught and practiced as a communal way of life .. further evidence Yahshua was an Essene

                But of course according to the Counterfeit Reformed Greco Roman Hellenistic Cult known as Christianity keeping the commandments are not necessary

                • “But of course according to the Counterfeit Reformed Greco Roman Hellenistic Cult known as Christianity keeping the commandments are not necessary”
                  …??…first notion about such thing really!…why do you say this, Rev?

                  • CHRISTIANITY .. As stated previously officially started with the first gentile Bishop Marcus who acquiesced to Roman Law imposed by Hadrian forbidding the Hebrew believers from obeying the Torah / 10 Commandments .. the first commandment “I am the LORD your God .. You shall have no other gods before[ me” .. was intolerable to Hadrian and viewed as a direct threat to Roman rule .. Observing the Sabbath again was a direct threat to Roman rule as Rome followed an 8 day calendar .. the Biblical Calendar was a Lunar calendar in conflict with the Roman calendar as the Sabbath was not a fixed day .. the choice was obey God or submit to Rome .. those who submitted to Rome abandoned the Torah given to Moses .. the Nazarenes refused to submit to Hadrian.

                    HELLENISM .. Jews based in Alexandria during the Maccabee period embraced both Greek religion and culture and later Roman religion and culture and transition easily under Hadrian then creating the Greek New Testament writings at the Catechetical School of Alexandria .. GRECO ROMAN HELLENISTIC

                    REFORMED .. the Reformation changed nothing .. Christianity in all its forms remains under Roman rule observing the pagan feast days continuing the apostacy since 135 AD
                    CULT .. Christianity worships the Bible as ‘Closed Canon’ meaning it cant be questioned .. it’s the final authority .. other known scriptures are forbidden and have been removed ..

                    It is my firm conviction .. CHRISTIANITY IS A REFORMED GRECO ROMAN HELLENISTIC CULT

                  • in “…christianity…keeping the commandments – the 10 commandments, isn’t it? – are not necessary”???
                    “Torah” is much larger and different than just the 10 commandment, IMO
                    agree on the submission of the original Jesus’/essens’ teachings to the roman/bizantium imperial power…the purge lasted for centuries…so the idea of the reincarnation of the inmortal human soul was kicked off on the way…

                    • Why would you think the 10 commandments are not necessary ???

                      Yahshua obviously taught they are necessary to obtain eternal life .. “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” … Then he *said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” .. quoting from the 10 commandments given to Moses

                      the Jews would have you believe the Torah consists of 613 laws they added to the 10 commandments but this is false .. when Moses came down from Mt Sinai with the 10 commandments he said .. ‘ These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and HE ADDED NOTHING MORE. ‘ Deut 5:22

                      the Essenes/Nazarenes did not submit to Rome .. the Hellenistic Christians submitted to Rome

                    • Jesus’ teachings repeat the 10 commandments. that’s why I didn’t understand your statement that, quote:
                      “But of course according to the Counterfeit Reformed Greco Roman Hellenistic Cult known as Christianity keeping the commandments are not necessary”.
                      why do you say that, Rev?

                    • ‘Christianity’ believes in the doctrine of grace .. no longer under the ‘Law/Torah/Commandments’ refusing to obey the commandment to honor the Sabbath in defiance of Rome .. those who worship on Constantine’s Sun-Day witness to that fact ..

                      If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. James 2

                      Do you understand .. if you fail to honor one commandment, you are guilty of offending all the commandments ??

                      Do you not wonder why .. if James was the leader of the faith in Messiah .. why do we have only one writing of James but half the NT attributed to Paul ???

                    • ok: you say that since christians don’t honor Sabbath they fail the complex of the 10 commandments as a whole. so it’s a cult.
                      questions:
                      1. where in the NT is it stated that Jesus’ followers should honor Sabbath? (thanks, I just need the quote),
                      2. by “James” in the NT do you refer to this?
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_of_James

                      “The epistle was only gradually accepted into the canon of the New Testament.”…I wonder at what Concilium exactly and in what century they (the church fathers or later, the clerical attendees, under the vigilance of the Roman/Byzantine emperor) voted to include that text into the NT…
                      3. you don’t refer to this, don’t you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocryphon_of_James

              • The dispute between Paul and Peter concerned the Pharisees attempt to impose circumcision and their laws on the Gentile believers .. James in his wisdom agreed with Paul but used the opportunity to expose Paul’s own hypocrisy .. sending him to the Temple to complete his Nazarite Vow in order to quiet those who were protesting that he Paul a Pharisee was claiming they were no longer under the law ..

                Nazarite Vow
                In the Hebrew Bible, a nazirite or nazarite is one who voluntarily took a vow described in Numbers 6:1–21. “Nazarite” comes from the Hebrew word נזיר nazir meaning “consecrated” or “separated”.[1] This vow required the person to:
                • Abstain from wine, wine vinegar, grapes, raisins, intoxicating liquors,[2] vinegar made from such substances,[3] and eating or drinking any substance that contains any trace of grapes.[4]
                • Refrain from cutting the hair on one’s head; but to allow the locks of the head’s hair to grow.[5]
                • Not to become ritually impure by contact with corpses or graves, even those of family members.[6]
                After following these requirements for a designated interval (which would be specified in the individual’s vow), the person would immerse in a mikveh and make three offerings: a lamb as a burnt offering (olah), a ewe as a sin-offering (hatat), and a ram as a peace offering (shelamim), in addition to a basket of unleavened bread, grain offerings and drink offerings, which accompanied the peace offering. They would also shave their head in the outer courtyard of the Jerusalem Temple and then place the hair on the same fire as the peace offering. (Numbers 6:18)
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazirite

                4 Do not trust yourself to lying words, saying, The sanctuary of YAHWEH! The sanctuary of YAHWEH! This is the sanctuary of YAHWEH! 5 For if you thoroughly amend your ways and your doings; if you truly practice justice between a man and his neighbor; 6 if you do not oppress the stranger, the orphan, and the widow; and do not pour out innocent blood in this place, or walk after other Elohim to your evil; 7 then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, from forever and to forever.
                11 Has this house on which My name is called become a den of violent ones in your eyes?
                22 For I did not speak to your fathers, nor command them in the day that I brought them out from the land of Egypt, concerning matters of burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23 But I commanded them this thing, saying, Obey My voice, and I will be your Elohim, and you shall be My people. Also, Walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, so that it may be well with you. Jeremiah 7

                Do you think Yahshua would approve ?
                I can assure you .. you will not find in scripture that Yahshua ever entered the Temple and participated in the ritual sacrifice of animals and He never took a vow ..

                “Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.’ 34 But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. 36 Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil ..
                Matthew 5

                Yet the Messiah claimed He fulfilled the entire law and said, not one would be done away with .. so what law was He talking about ??

              • When asked which is the greatest commandment, Yahshua quotes Moses from Deut 6 .. 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

                Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors[a] that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the LORD and you to declare to you the word of the LORD, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said:
                6 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
                7 “You shall have no other gods before[b] me.
                8 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
                11 “You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
                12 “Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.
                16 “Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
                17 “You shall not murder.
                18 “You shall not commit adultery.
                19 “You shall not steal.
                20 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
                21 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor’s house or land, his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
                22 These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and HE ADDED NOTHING MORE. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me. …
                These are the commands, decrees and laws the LORD your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, 2 so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the LORD your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy long life. 3 Hear, Israel, and be careful to obey so that it may go well with you and that you may increase greatly in a land flowing with milk and honey, just as the LORD, the God of your ancestors, promised you.

                4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

                The Greatest Commandment ..

                But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, [n]a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38 This is the great and [o]foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

                How do you love God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind .. is it some mystical emotional state ??

                If you love Me, keep My commandments …

                He that has My commandments and keeps them, it is that one who loves Me; and the one that loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and will reveal Myself to him.

                The one who does not love Me does not keep My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father who sent Me. JOHN 5

                By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.

                • “9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, ”
                  …excuse my question, Rev…but what version/New Testament text does this quote come from?…

                  • Deut 5 NIV and Matt 19 NASB

                  • http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/5-9.htm

                    • thanks. exactly what I thought:

                      “The Book of Deuteronomy (from Ancient Greek: Δευτερονόμιον, Deuteronómion, “second law”; Hebrew: דְּבָרִים‎, Devārīm, “[spoken] words”) is the fifth book of the Torah (a section of the Hebrew Bible) and the Christian Old Testament.”

                      = Old Testament, the sanguinary Yahweh, the sectarian god of “the chosen people”.
                      not such quote from Jesus’s teachings really, isn’t it?

                      Old Testament’s god = “obey me and I will protect you and you’ll be my chosen people” = the norm of a regular sect;
                      New Testament’s God / God according to the teachings of Jesus = “love me, because I’m your Father and so (following the law of love) you could reach me” = a universal, all inclusive spiritual path.

                      OT’s God: no, thanks.

                      Jesus came to restore the universal, all inclusive spiritual path towards our celestial Father, and save us from the ruling paganism, the law of the torah incl.

            • just change “Israel” with Adam’s heirs/men’s reality…

              • Totally agree except one part, which was not the commentators conclusion and main point. True Israel is spiritual and by faith in Jesus Christ, that I agree with.

                The only part I disagree with the commentator on begins around 1:10 and does not last very long (half minute or so). He states, the implications of being a true Israel, as seen by Jews (as opposed to Christians), was they were “to go all the way and shed their own blood and come under the law” if not then “you were not a true citizen of Israel”. What I disagree with is this commentator’s understanding of how citizen’s of Israel thought of themselves. They did not think they had to shed their own blood under the law to be true citizen’s. This is why they performed sacrifices. It was not to be their blood, but another’s blood to be shed. Now they, Jews at the time (Pharisees, Sadducees, etc.) were not spiritual anymore. They were not the true Jews, the true Israel, because of what the animal sacrifices represented. They lost their understanding and did not know what the meaning of the animal sacrifices were. Since the animal sacrifices represent a substitute who would bear their sins and be under the fiery wrath of God, but they did no longer understand that meaning, then when the True Substitute came who would really bear their sins for a people, namely Jesus, the unbelievers did not recognize Jesus when He was on the earth, died on the cross, rose from the dead, and did not hear and understand this message.

                Now there would have been citizen’s of Israel who also understood that being “under the law”, meaning, living a righteous life is not how one is right before God. The Jews and Gentiles were to be one in Christ. The two become one. Before Jesus was the time of the hardening of the Gentiles, and after Jesus is the time of the hardening of the Jews. Yet, just like before Jesus came there were Gentiles who did believe; after Jesus came, there are Jews who do believe in Jesus. All who believe change in their life and practice and worship the God the way God had established He is to be worshipped. In the New Testament era, the worship of God is different than in the Old Testament era, because when Jesus came some ways of worshipping God in the Old Testament only taught the people about Jesus who had not yet come. Yet when He came then teaching about the Jesus, or The Christ, who had not yet come would be a lie, because He did come, so God not being a liar changed how He is to be worshipped.

                Yet those that believed such even at the time when Jesus did his earthly ministry, when Jesus came in other words, they would have understood, because their faith was in God not in their own self. They would have understood they could never live righteously under the law, or do the law perfectly. So they would have seen Jesus, due to their faith in God, and understood He (Jesus) was the message of the other who would shed blood for them (what animals sacrifices taught) and He (Jesus) lived the perfect life under the law (which they knew they were not doing and thus had faith in that God would deliver them from their own sin and the wicked world). All these things, plus more, had to be in place.

                So two things written above (though there could be more). First, somebody else had to be the sacrifice (shed the blood). The animal sacrifices taught this to the people. Importantly (and this is all in the Bible, especially Leviticus), when the person brought his own sin or guilt offering to the Temple the priest would place his hand on the person and on the animal sacrifice. The hand placement represented the sin of the person being placed on the animal sacrifice. The sin is represented as being imputed, or placed, from the person to the animal. The animal is sacrificed by fire. The fire represents the wrath of God on the animal. The understanding is spiritual. The wrath of God (fire) comes on the substitute (animal) for the sin of the person is in the substitute. Yet even all of this represented the substitute who was to come who would be sinless Himself, but bear the sins of others. Believers knew this in the Old Testament. They understood the spirituality of the Temple and its’ sacrifices. The sins of the people would be seen in Him and the wrath of God would come down on Him (the death of Jesus on the cross).

                I mentioned two things, so secondly, the representative of the people who would be righteous (perfectly) before God. Adam failed to do this. He represented all the people. His fall therefore is our fall. His sin and guilt, guilt because of his sin, in other words, he transgressed or broke the law of God in the garden of Eden. He represented all the people, so he sinned and is guilty and all people thereafter were corrupted not only by his sin but all people thereafter, now that sin is in the world, all people thereafter truly sin on their own accord and are guilty before God. The way God ordained His salvation is He would also send a person who, like Adam, would represent a people (Romans 5). Jesus was the second Adam (1 Cor. 15; again Romans 5). Jesus represented a people. Jesus had to live under the law in order to live the perfect life that Adam failed to do; somebody had to fulfill what Adam failed to do. So Jesus lived the perfect righteous life, meaning, He followed the law perfectly. He fulfilled what Adam failed. Therefore Christ was the representative of a people, just like Adam, but this time, somebody who is called The Christ lived righteously, perfectly. The Christ was promised throughout the Old Testament (OT), so the OT people could also put their God given faith in the Person and work of The Christ to come who would live perfectly where Adam failed, and The Christ would represent them before God where Adam failed.

                I do not even think the Jews at the time of Jesus believed: to be a citizen of Israel meant one had to shed their own blood. That is the one small part of the commentary that I disagree with. He was correct in saying they did believe they had to live under the law, and they added all these extra-Biblical laws (man’s traditions), too. But all people in the world, without faith in Christ, believe they have to live under the law. Living under the law is not a special Jewish thing, Judaic thing. All people without Christ believe they must do something by their own will in order to make their own self right before God. They fail like Adam failed. They are in the line of fallen, unsaved Adam, not in the line of Christ. For like Adam, they fail to live the law perfectly (live under the law), but vainly try to live under the law to only fail each and every day of their whole lives – the vain pride. Believers also have pride. Believers also sin, meaning, we do things at times that have nothing to do with God and His way. We sin. Yet believers repent of their sin and place their faith in God to deliver them out of their own sin and we look forward to the new life when Christ will return again and He will complete His new creation where sin and death will be no more.

      • maria, your doctrine, or way picks and chooses what it likes and dislikes from Scripture. Your standard of picking and choosing is based on your own reason, not the content of Scripture itself. The proper way to read a book is to read it and then understand what the book itself communicates.

        To pick up an economic book and only choose to interpret its’ pages by looking at the diagrams and then tell everybody, ‘It must be an art book. Look at all the pictures in the book. People are wrong when reading the economic book; it is not an economic book, but had been an art book all along. The editors were mistaken.’ Such an approach to interpret anything does not respect the actual thing itself. It is only maria’s interpretation when most people see it is an economic book. Of course some people may listen and think, ‘Yeah look at all those diagrams, underneath it all, the truth of the book is that it really is an art book.’ Such a notion is imaginative, but does not put any effort into understanding the actual content of what the book communicates.

        Ones sensibilities may not like what the Scripture communicates when the whole of it is understood. The beauty and harmony of the Bible wonderfully communicates a meaningful understanding. All the parts of Scripture fit together into a coherent whole. A person may not like some parts of Scripture, but the honest interpreter will not try to defy what the writing actually states. The honest interpreter may point out they do not like some parts or the whole, but they are open that it is their own interpretation and will not try to change the actual content of the pages by deleting or adding to Scripture what fits their own taste.

        On the other hand, to interpret Scripture based on the whole of the Scripture is communicates without deleting or adding to it to fits ones own sensibilities is to learn what the Scripture actually communicates. To not take bits and pieces of the Bible and rid or add to it to appease ones own conscience sense of guilt and sin is to face the reality of what the book actually has written in its’ pages. One may not like it, but it is written the way it is written. It does not mean one will like it, but at least, they are being honest about what they do not like written. They are not hiding what they do not like with disclaimers such as, ‘Well, it really was not supposed to be there anyways and because it hurts me I will just hide it so nobody knows about it.’

        The wickedness of the world will be judged according to Scripture, thus God’s Word. The wickedness of the world will be judged by Jesus Christ, because not all believer and there is a hell for them. I could quote anything out of Scripture, even what Jesus Himself had been written to say, but sin tries to hide itself and does not want to be exposed to the light of God in His written Word. Sin rebels and finds all other reasons from pagan sources and ideologies to hide behind. Just because Pythagoras said something does not mean God said it. Pythagoras is not God and to claim a mere pagan ideology has some kind of authority and ability to even understand God’s Word is foolish. Pagan’s are not believers and obviously will have nothing to do with the God who is Jesus, for they say anything and everything to defy and delude who God is because they do not believe in Him. In fact, they hate Him. They desire to erase and rid anything that gets in the way of their own self-inflicted turmoil and troubled conscience by a wrong way of appeasing their sin and guilt.

        Jesus is the Judge and King who will Judge the wicked to hell and will call His people to be near Him to enjoy the new creation where there will be no sin and death and His will enjoy His glory forever:

        Revelation 19:11, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.”

        John 5:21-25, “21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. 25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. 30 “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.””

        John 9:39, “And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.”

        2 Timothy 4:1-5 “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”

        • Thanks, adirondack, for your extend explanations. I really appreciate it.

          I don’t mind reading a book and just grasping what it communicates. Not so when it’s claimed that that book and each comma in it is THE Absolute Truth, so I must obey it as is because yes.

          The point that guides me always is “question everything”.
          We at FTM know 2 tested in the history rules:
          a. it’s far not so difficult to title a truth a fake news and viceversa,
          b. because the history is written by the winners…or “the history is what a consensus has been achieved to be told has been”.

          The Bible/Scriptures is composed by the OT and NT, being the first (OT) the tradition of a tribe/s that claim to be “the chosen ones” in preference to everyone else (I smell a racism here, sorry) and being the second one (NT) a compendium of text upon which content a consensus has been achieved during long theological (and not only, from 325 a.d. on it was all with the blessing of the mundane power / the emperor of Constantinople or later the pope of Rome, who was a terrenal sovereign) discussions during long centuries. During those discussions many texts considered “orthodox” amongst the first christians have been outlawed as heretics (=heresys = choice) and so were not included into what was meant to become the guide for the people (and their spiritual governance).

          Yes, you are right, with all of the above in mind, I am not able to venerate the Scriptures as is.
          What I try, instead, is find the millennial tradition of the real faith in God within Jesus’ teachings, the universal (not sectarian/racist) guidance to live a life embracing the One.

          • maria, “Not so when it’s claimed that that book and each comma in it is THE Absolute Truth, so I must obey it as is because yes.”

            It really is about faith, knowledge, understanding, and holiness. The Book itself communicates a message in and of itself. What I was pointing out is your hermeneutic is not using the complete message, but only picking and choosing certain parts that fit your notion, not the coherent message of the Book itself.

            maria, “The point that guides me always is “question everything”.”

            That is the definition of “no faith”. Only doubt. Question yes, but to never settle upon a firm foundation, means to question everything and waver to and fro.

            maria, ““the chosen ones” in preference to everyone else (I smell a racism here, sorry)”

            Two things, first, in the OT, thus to read the whole message, it is understood that non-Israelites came to believe in God. Just like in the NT, Jews do believe in God and they leave Judaism and attend a church. There was an emphasis on the Israelites being in the main God’s people in the OT, as in the New in the main God’s people are Gentiles (do not identify with Judaic heritage).
            Second, it could not be a race issue, or ethnic issue. It never was and never will be. Some may take it that way, for example Jews do. Yet just like Jesus told the Pharisees their father is not Abraham, because if he was then they would believe in Jesus. Biologically, I know the Edomite theory is out there, but let us say, even if the Pharisees could biologically demonstrate their lineage went to Abraham. Just like the biological lineage of Jesus could include Mary and Joseph back through Abraham (Matthew and Luke), the biological is not the defining issue. It is not the evil issue, but it is not the defining issue, too. Faith is the defining issue. Not faith itself, but what the faith is in. When somebody has faith, they are having faith in something. The faith of Scripture is in God. The chosen people are the people who believe in God. It does not matter what race or ethnicity the people may be born into or in life identify with. The defining issue of being a chosen people is the name, or classify, a group of people who believe in the God of Scripture. Chosen people is a spiritual nomenclature, not race or ethic.

            maria, “being the second one (NT) a compendium”

            There are two points I will make in the section I quoted above, which the quote is beginning of your comment of the section in which two points by me will be raised.

            First. The Roman Empire, such as with Constantine, were parasitic of Christianity for various and multiple reasons beyond the scope of my writing. I will give one example. By the time of Constantine, people already superstitious due to their sin, but religiously inclined since the garden of Eden because of how they were created, which is to serve and worship God, the Fall makes their service and worship perverted and corrupted, but service and ill-worship people continue to do, for it their nature. So Constantine’s arrival in history does not introduce anything new to the nature of man. Christianity had grown and the churches had been communicating with each other by his time. Habitual contact between people establishes social structures, which again is nothing new to the nature of man. The Christian social structure by the time of Constantine had grown enormously since the smaller group of disciples had worshipped at the true Temple, namely Jesus Christ. The Christian social structure of the church was so large that things and events within the church impacted the larger surrounding society. People in the church (being the church) also had jobs, families, and economies in the larger society. When different teachings entered the church the ensuing debates were felt outside the church. Unavoidable due to its growing size. Constantine stepped in only because he, like Roman Emperors before him, saw that the debates in the church, the Arian controversy, had begun to disrupt the political structure of the larger society. The influential church causing more political unrest due to who oversees various churches and thus how economies and social life interact in the various regions were being disrupted. If a lie enters the church, then the truth lived and embodied by a people in the church will and do not like the lie to be in the church. Lies are disruptive and confusing. The political peace was threatened and so Constantine stepped in and told the church to sit down and work through the mess that had developed. Constantine’s reasons were more political than anything, not because the orthodox were the powerful per se, but because the understood new teaching of Arius’ followers were being disruptive to the very social fabric of society. Some Emperors side with false teachings, some with true teachings, but what is always to be kept in mind, is an emperor is mainly thinking about his empire and any political unrest is a threat to his empire and thus a threat to himself. He is the emperor and that is who emperor’s are.

            The second point I would like to make concerns the “heresy v. orthodoxy” you mentioned. Anybody can look in Scripture and read if Constantine backed the true teaching or not. Again it is according to Scripture that the proper believer measures whether anything is true or not. By believer, I mean the church that believes in the Christ as written in Scripture. There are other believers in the world, but as you yourself wrote, you do not believe in the Christ of the Scripture. To me, there is only one Christ and He is of the Scripture. I understand you believe otherwise. How I know the difference between true and false teaching by Scripture and even that truth is based solely on the resurrected Christ who is the God-man. Christology is very helpful in knowing the difference between true writings and false writings. Are people making Christ out to be like their own beliefs, or is the Christ distinctly different from any other person? The latter is what I understand Scripture to be communicating. The canon existed before the ink was dry on the paper. Not everybody may have agreed or even read all the writings, but disagreement does not mean nonexistence. The coherent gospel message is The standard to measure whether a teaching is part of the canon or not. Measurement may still be enacted today and is all the time, so it does not even matter what people did in a council 1700 years ago or whatever years ago. The truth is not measured by the councils decision, but by the very Word of God now written, which my hermeneutic.

  3. Ken Copeland – usual suspect

  4. Erdogan Calls Israel “Terrorist State That Kills Children”, An Angry Netanyahu Responds

    Relations between Israel and Turkey took a sharp turn for the worse on Sunday after their leaders exchanged accusations of involvement in terrorism, days after the US recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. First, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said he would fight against the controversial declaration, describing Israel as a “terrorist state” that kills children, in a speech in Istanbul.
    “Palestine is an innocent victim… as for Israel, it is a terrorist state, yes, terrorist!” Erdogan said in a speech in the central Turkish city of Sivas. “We will not abandon Jerusalem to the mercy of a state that kills children.”

    Hours after Erdogan’s outburst, Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu hit back, calling his counterpart a leader who bombs Kurdish villagers and supports terrorists, during an official visit to Paris. While the two countries had normalised relations in recent years, Sunday’s flare-up came after Turkey was angered by US President Donald Trump’s decision to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Furthermore, as we reported on Friday and Saturday, Trump’s move has sparked protests in Muslim and Arab countries for four days.
    Erdogan earlier described the status of Jerusalem, whose eastern sector Palestinians see as the capital of their future state, as a “red line” for Muslims. Netanyahu was quick to counter the assault when he spoke later during a press conference alongside French President Emmanuel Macron.
    “I am not used to receiving lectures about morality from a leader who bombs Kurdish villagers in his native Turkey, who jails journalists, who helps Iran go around international sanctions, and who helps terrorists, including in Gaza, kill innocent people,” he said quoted by AFP. “That is not the man who is going to lecture us.”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-12-10/erdogan-blasts-oppressive-israel

  5. EU’s Federica Mogherini rebuffs Netanyahu on Jerusalem

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42313727

    The EU’s foreign policy chief says there is “full EU unity” in support of Jerusalem becoming the capital of both Israel and a future Palestinian state.
    Federica Mogherini said the bloc’s member states would not recognise the city as Israel’s capital before a final status peace agreement.

  6. THE THIRD TEMPLE FOR ALL HUMANKIND ON THE TEMPLE MOUNTAIN OF JERUSALEM

    http://www.templemount.org/komsky/

  7. Historic evidence .. The Temple was not built on the Temple Mount

  8. Animal Sacrifice Powered Ancient Jerusalem’s Economy

    Pilgrims came from hundreds of miles away to sacrifice animals at an ancient temple in Jerusalem, new research suggests.
    An analysis of bones found in an ancient dump in the city dating back 2,000 years revealed that animals sacrificed at the temple came from far and wide.
    “The study shows that there is a major interprovincial market that enables the transfer of vast numbers of animals that are used for sacrifice and feasting in Jerusalem during that time period,” said study co-author Gideon Hartman, a researcher at the University of Connecticut.
    The finding, published in the September issue of the Journal of Archaeological Science, confirms visions of the temple depicted in historical Jewish texts and suggests the economic heart of the city was its slaughtering operation. [Photos: Bronze-Age Donkey Sacrifice Discovered in Israel]
    Massive slaughterhouse
    At the time, Jerusalem was a bustling metropolis without any natural economic resources, as it was landlocked and far from most major trade routes.
    According to the Talmud, a Jewish religious text, the city’s economic heart was the Holy Temple, the only place where Israelites could sacrifice animals as offerings to God. Parts of the animal that weren’t sacrificed as a burnt offering were often left for people to feast on.
    Some passages in the text depict priests wading up to their knees in blood, and others describe 1.2 million animals being slaughtered on one day. And the ancient Jewish historian Flavius Josephus also describes an enormous slaughtering operation.
    But historians wondered whether these descriptions were hyperbole or fact.
    City dump
    A few years ago, archaeologists unearthed a massive dump on the outskirts of the old walled city of Jerusalem. Dating revealed the dump was used between the start of King Herod’s reign in 37 B.C. and the Great Revolt in A.D. 66. [See Images of the Massive Bone Dump ]
    Whereas most city dumps contain animal bones, this one contained an unusually large proportion of them for an agricultural society, Hartman said.
    “Meat was not eaten on a daily basis. It was something that was kept for special events,” Hartman told LiveScience.
    What’s more, most of the animals were young, suggesting they were raised for sacrifice.
    Hartman analyzed nitrogen and carbon isotopes, or atoms of the same element with a different number of neutrons, from about 160 sheep and goat bones found in the city dump. He then compared the bones from the city dump with bones from the same time period taken from animals that were raised both nearby and in distant locales.
    All animals incorporate unique ratios of nitrogen and carbon isotopes from their environment into their body from the food they eat, so isotope analysis can reveal where animals came from.
    The study found that many of the animals found in the city dump came from rural desert regions hundreds of miles away, such as Arabia or Transjordan. [Stark Beauty: Images of Israel’s Negev Desert]
    Pilgrimage economy
    The discovery bolsters the notion that Jerusalem was supported by a massive economy of pilgrims who brought animals for slaughter.
    After the first temple was destroyed in 586 B.C., the Israelites eventually rebuilt a second temple, but by then many Jews were scattered from Asia Minor to Europe. (The First Temple period refers to the time after the first temple was built until it was destroyed, while the Second Temple period refers to the lifetime of the second temple.)
    “There are strong and wealthy Jewish populations during the time of the second temple that are established far away from the land of Israel,” Hartman said.
    Those people were still religiously required to sacrifice animals, which could only be done in Jerusalem.
    So representatives from distant Jewish communities would gather money from the community to buy animals for slaughter. They would then bring animals all the way to the temple in Jerusalem, Hartman said.
    “This fuels the economy in Jerusalem: The merchants are making a lot of money and the city prospers,” Hartman said.

    https://www.livescience.com/39307-jerusalem-animal-sacrifice-found.html

    • Well of course animals sacrifice was commanded by God. Leviticus and so many writings of the OT and NT reveal the command. The spiritual meaning may allude some without the gospel, but praise God in His giving of the gospel message in the Lord Jesus Christ to understand His holy Word. Now when the people improperly handled the animal sacrifices and any other Temple duty, noting the holy day of Sabbath certain special duties were to be performed, God sent His prophets and judges to correct the wickedness of the people:

      Nehemiah 13:15-22, “15 In those days I saw people in Judah treading winepresses on the Sabbath and bringing in grain and loading it on donkeys, together with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Therefore I warned them against selling food on that day. 16 People from Tyre who lived in Jerusalem were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise and selling them in Jerusalem on the Sabbath to the people of Judah. 17 I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this wicked thing you are doing—desecrating the Sabbath day? 18 Didn’t your ancestors do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity on us and on this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath.”

      19 When evening shadows fell on the gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I ordered the doors to be shut and not opened until the Sabbath was over. I stationed some of my own men at the gates so that no load could be brought in on the Sabbath day. 20 Once or twice the merchants and sellers of all kinds of goods spent the night outside Jerusalem. 21 But I warned them and said, “Why do you spend the night by the wall? If you do this again, I will arrest you.” From that time on they no longer came on the Sabbath. 22 Then I commanded the Levites to purify themselves and go and guard the gates in order to keep the Sabbath day holy.”

      • quote: “Well of course animals sacrifice was commanded by God. Leviticus and so many writings of the OT and NT reveal the command.”

        …question to you and Rev, please:

        where in the NT – only NT!!! – we could read the requirement for animal sacrifice to please Jesus’ God?

        thanks.

        • When I said “NT reveal the command”, what I am referring to is the command was for the OT. The epistle of Hebrews is in the main referring to the blood of bulls for example. Yet the animals sacrifices were tutors, they were types of the substitute who will bear the sins of others. As I wrote about the Levitical priests figuratively, meaning, spiritually teaching how the sin of the offer is imputed to the substitute (animal). Then the animals is sacrificed by the wrath of God because of the sin figuratively bore in the animal. All figurative because these where teachings and sacraments of the real Lamb, as John the Baptist called out in the wilderness, namely Jesus The Christ, who would bear the sins of others and be a substitute death. The sacrifice on the cross was accepted and planned by God to be where the real sacrifice will take place. All the animals sacrifices pointed toward the actual sacrifice that legally satisfies the due punishment on sinning man who is guilty of breaking God’s law. So when Jesus, being God Himself saving His people, to be the substitute, the one who would in the place of others take the punishment that others deserve, Jesus Himself took the punishment. The animal sacrifices are no longer because they only taught about how another will bear the sins of the people. When that other came, again namely Jesus The Christ, then the animals sacrifices which only teach about His coming are no longer, for He came. He is also the true Temple, which baffled the Pharisees when Jesus said the Temple will be torn down and in three days raised back up. The Pharisees, as written in Scripture, were baffled and talked about how long it took to built the Temple and now Jesus is saying it will be torn down and in only three days built back up again. Of course Jesus was talking about Himself in His death and resurrection three days later, but the unbelievers did not understand, nor wanted to, because in their pride they desired to save their own self and therefore vainly tried to make their own self right before God, and refused to believe that God Himself is the Savior. God Himself in being very man was the only way to fulfill what Adam failed to do, and to fulfill the satisfaction necessary that the punishment of sin and guilt had caused in the world. The OT people knew the animals sacrifices were not the real sacrifice. They had faith, referring to those that did have faith, in that God Himself would save them, just as He did out of Egypt, but even all of that was only a teaching, a spiritual type of the reality to come in how God would actually carry out His deliverance. That is why the NT is referred to as the full revelation. Christ had come and God fully in Christ showed once and for all how He really is saving His people from the wicked world into His new creation. The OT people knew, but only obscurely and roughly, but the full revelation had to actually be in history and demonstrated and accomplished for people to actually see and then read about how God was and did in The Christ save His people.

          So no animal sacrifice in New Testament era and no Temple. Both if upheld and acted out go against Christ coming the first time, born of the virgin Mary and raising from the dead. He is the true sacrifice and true Temple, any apostasy, or reversion to animal sacrifices and the Temple are complete rejections of why they existed in the first place, which is to point to the coming Christ. He came, so they are no longer needed. Of course Judaism, and others, do not understand and forget and do not have the witness of the Holy Spirit telling them the truth in the Bible. So they still think The Christ did not come yet, and those who do, but still want the sacrifices and Temple, they are the same in substance with the Jews of today. They reject He came and do things, like build or call for the building of the Temple, as if He did not come yet. But He did.

        • It is very important to understand it was not the meager death of Jesus on the cross that fulfills and satisfies the punishment from God for the sin and guilt in the world. Others died on the cross. It is all about who Jesus was and is. He was different. His death meant something that all other deaths did not mean, because His death was ordained due to the very Person He is, namely The God-man. There is something of inherent value in the Person of Christ not found in any other person before or since, because of this distinct qualitative difference only the Person of Christ could meet the necessary qualitative value in His death to satisfy the deserved punishment on sin. No other man and woman have this distinct, inherent value. The meditation on just how important in knowing who Christ is and how only His essential character, and thus being who He is, in order to satisfy the punishment on sin is a worthy meditation on just how awful and destructive sin is, and just how mighty the conquering of sin had to be for only God Himself in being also a man could have the power, and holiness to conquer sin. Sin is that powerful. No mere mortal can destroy nor overcome sin. When man does so it is only because of the power of God in man giving man the perseverance to overcome sin. Yet even that is not done well and perfectly now. Only when the new creation complete will the holiness in our life be completely created and sin will have no more dwelling place in our lives, because of the strength and power of God, not only in Christ on the cross and what that means, but also, because of work God does in our lives now to create a holy life in our lives now do we worship Him. It is not about mere moral living, but a holy life, being the beings and thus people we were created to be involves our true character which is we serve and worship God alone. Sin is against serving and worshipping God, so He also has to teach us how to worship and serve Him, like the very breath we breath and life beating our hearts, the life of worship and service is created and only God is the Creator.

          • did a newborn have sins prior to the arrival of Jesus and his dead on the cross?
            thanks.

            do the jewish religion today requires the animal sacrifices? are they enacted? thanks.

            • All people have sins. Prior and after the death of Jesus on the cross. People die, because the sin in them is corrupt. Jesus who had no sin died because of our sin, not His. He lovingly took on our sin and guilt to be the punished death in our place.

              I do not know to what extent they still do animal sacrifices. I have seen pictures. Some may also continue to do the Passover lamb. They think the Book saves them, and all the Jewish laws they added help make them more holy.

              John 5:39-40, “39 You study[c] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”

              • “All people have sins”…
                I asked about the newborn, the babies…those babies who were born before the scarifice of Jesus on the cross at the moment they were just babies/newborn…did they have sins?
                thanks.
                later I’ll comment on your longer post…

                • Yes. I know what you asked. My answer: All people have sins. Does not matter what time in history they lived, because all people die. Babies are people. Babies die, babies grow up and die. Sin is what causes death, because sin corrupts people and so – they die. Before, after, does not matter. People die due to people being sinners.

                  • if a baby, born before Jesus, died at…let’s say…2 months of age, did he/she have sins?

                    • Did the baby die? That is your answer.

                    • Do babies die after Jesus? That is your answer, too.

                    • not surely because those 2 month-old babies have sins!! that is my answer.
                      we, humans, don’t die because we have sins. with or without sins we shall die physically anyway, that’s the rule of the game.

                    • In Christianity, the promise given by Christ, because of the work He alone accomplished, is He gives believers eternal life.

                      Sickness and death are a corruption due to sin. Babies die because they are corrupted, that is what death is – a corruption. Death is not loving at all, but foul, nasty, and an abomination. Death is not natural, but rather death marks the disorder and chaos of the fallen, wicked world. Death is a corruption of God’s good creation. Death is sad, not just the “rule of the game” where no love exists, just a dog-eat-dog world. I believe in the God who loves.

                      The wages of sin are death. The promise from God, for He is loving and good, is all believers will enjoy His new creation where there is no more suffering, death, and sin. As believers in Jesus Christ, Him alone being our Savior and God, He gives believers the gift of eternal life. When we die now, we are drawn near to the bliss of God, and at Christ’s second coming, our bodies and soul unite to live forever in a world without suffering, death, and sin. He is truly a good, loving, and righteous God.

                    • “Babies die because they are corrupted”…wow!!…I wonder if you have hold a newborn in your arms…if so, I wonder how can you state that he/she could be corrupted. …

                      …there is something I could not get…you say:

                      a. the death comes because of corruption,
                      b. “all believers will enjoy – once dead and when Jesus comes again – His new creation where there is no more suffering, death, and sin”.

                      so although the believers are corrupted – because they died – they will enjoy the eternal life of joy?

                      ???

          • Yes, death is due to corruption, very sad indeed. Dead babies are sad; dead old people are sad, not one is more valuable than the other. That is why the blessed gift from God is eternal life, only to those who believe in the accomplished work of Jesus Christ. Believers cherish and find precious the gift given to them. They are joyful knowing their purpose is to live in His new creation that He is making for them where no more suffering, death, and sin will be.

            Unbelievers do not put their hope in God, but only their own self. Since their own self does not give life, for people are not the Creator, then unbelievers die the eternal death of being under the wrath of God, because they reject the God of life and desire only sin, suffering, and death. Unbelievers do not accept the eternal life offered to them in Jesus Christ. In pride and vain effort, unbelievers reject what Christ Jesus does for people, and unbelievers try to do only what a God, the one and only, can do.

            Yes, believers are corrupted – they die too, unless Jesus returns before then. Nobody is perfect. Jesus was perfect, but He died because He who had no sin stood in our place, and bore our sin to take the punishment from the wrath of God we deserve. Since He is the only Way, then those who reject His standing in their place, and would rather face the wrath of God on their own, then such unbelievers will get what they want and will face the wrath of God on their own instead of accepting what Jesus did for them. Since Jesus’ death on the cross, in Him being God and man, was a sacrifice of infinite value and worth – for God is infinite value and worth – then His death satisfied God’s judgement on sin. But since unbelievers are not God, they will have to face the wrath of God for eternity in order to pay for their sin. Jesus’ death was worth an eternity, for He is also God, His death came and was over with only three days later, and was of infinite value to pay off the infinite devalue of sin. Either way, the wrath of God falls on sin.

            The world is fallen. Sin pervades all, death and destruction had come to the world. The only hope is God’s salvation, which He did by taking on a man’s body unto Himself, being completely God and completely man, to save people from what people themselves can not save and give life for people do not do this, only God does.

        • NONE !

          • thanks. that’s what I thought. contrary to, oh! what a surprise!, the OT.

            should be very interesting if we could make a list of the religions of our known human history which require animal sacrifice vs. those that forbid it/ require other type of ritual connecting humans with their Creator…

            …could start with the vedic religious views, no animal sacrifice, only plants and essences:
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yajna#Offerings_and_style

    • thanks, Rev! very interesting!

      “Those people were still religiously required to sacrifice animals, which could only be done in Jerusalem.
      So representatives from distant Jewish communities would gather money from the community to buy animals for slaughter. They would then bring animals all the way to the temple in Jerusalem, Hartman said.”

      “religiously required”…”could be done only in Jerusalem”…wow! the BanKsters’ monopoly of the second temple!…few things have changed since…:(…maybe an important one: then (they) used to have only the jewish population in their grips, today (they) are succeeding to extend the monopoly over the globe…:(…

  9. the Essenes opposed animal sacrifice ..

    The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. 15 And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables; 16 and to those who were selling the doves He said, “Take these things away; stop making My Father’s house a [f]place of business.” 17 His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house will consume me.” John 2:13-17

    ANIMAL SACRIFICE
    http://www.essene.com/HumaneReligion/AnimalSacrifice.htm

    • Do you know any text that says that Jesus was in Lhasa, in Tibet? Thanks Rev17

      • Tibetan Gospel

        http://www.essene.com/Issa.htm

        • thanks, Rev. quite interesting…the source:
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Notovitch

          • crimean jew…
            “Shulim or Nikolai Aleksandrovich Notovich (Николай Александрович Нотович), known in the West as Nicolas Notovitch (1858-after 1916) was a Crimean[1] Jewish adventurer who claimed to be a Russian aristocrat[citation needed], spy[2][3] and journalist.”

        • Thanks, Rev17. It seems that all are doubts or interpretations of something in itself too faded. In the end, it follows the line of the Bible, but with even bigger steps, it goes far above all the circumstances with hardly any details of the reality that surrounds life on Earth. And nothing less than a life, which means so much to human life … Jesus has always had a halo of attraction, both for good and for evil.
          I believe that there should be, at least in Tibet, some kind of record of the passage of Jesus through these important monasteries, although, almost, if not all, have already been destroyed.
          Furthermore, Jesus did not travel alone to Tibet, and to me this, a monk reminded me a few years ago in Lhasa, and I had to prove it. He was a beautiful person and wise elder.
          And certainly the dark side lurks anywhere in the world.
          We all learn something wherever we go, but I do not think that Jesus only went to Tibet to learn, Jesus developed his own conscience as a child, connected with his own interior, where the truth can come, direct from the Father. We must not forget the lessons he gave to the temple teachers in Jerusalem at the age of twelve.
          Even with so much writing about Jesus, with all the good and positive things, it does not come in the reality of Jesus or his knees. The life of Jesus deserves to be better understood, for the good of all. Just by understanding the part of Jesus, by the Earth, seeing all the work he has done, even just part, we would already understand who and how Jesus is, and what is happening to human beings.
          We must be more aware of the greatness that has been given to us by God, something that those on the dark side do know and try to destroy it. We should not confuse reality with vanity.
          Jesus was in Tibet

      • Jesus in Tibet
        http://www.patheos.com/blogs/monkeymind/2014/08/jesus-in-tibet.html

        • great link, thanks:

          “On the whole, as an ancient document the Life of Issa is altogether unconvincing. It reads more like a journalistic effort to describe what might have happened if Jesus had visited India and Persia in his youth and what a modern cosmopolite thinks he did and taught in his ministry in Palestine.

          The external evidence for the Life is no more impressive.”

    • thanks, Rev.
      here the quote:
      ” “Take these things away; stop making My Father’s house a [f]place of business.””
      = refers to Jesus’ rejection of the business, not specifically of the animal sacrifice.
      so the question: are there any specific references in the NT of the condemnation of animal sacrifice by Jesus?
      thanks.

      • Maria, there are no specific references of the condemnation of animal sacrifice by Yahshua .. although there is evidence Paul practiced animal sacrifice in keeping a Nazarite vow (not to be confused with Nazarene) This is also evidence Paul did not practice what he preached as he practiced laws of his choosing .. the Nazarite vow required sacrificing 3 animals .. 1 lamb 1 ewe and 1 ram .. nor was he paying attention when Yahshua said .. ‘take no vows but let your yes, be yes and your no, be no, anything else is evil’ ..

        18 Paul, having remained many days longer, took leave of the brethren and put out to sea for Syria, and with him were Priscilla and Aquila. In Cenchrea he had his hair cut, for he was keeping a vow. Acts 18

        “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to [e]walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who [f]are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and [pay their expenses so that they may shave their [h]heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law …
        26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them. Acts 21

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazirite

        • God revealed to Paul who wrote for us that the transition from the Mosaic covenant to the New Covenant would not happen overnight. Do not eat animals sacrificed to idols in front of weaker brothers, even though we know those idols are no gods and the food may be eaten in thanksgiving to God. People had to learn. It takes time. They do not know instantly, and need to be preached to and the understanding is worked in their hearts over time by the Holy Spirit that OT activities are to be no longer observed. The idea includes sin. People just do not stop sinning even when they know something is bad. God works in their heart over time and the person eventually is free from the sin, again, over time. Yet! There is more sin the persons life that just does not leave in a nanosecond. God works in their life and mature in holiness, but nobody is perfect so the full law can not make them right before God. Only Christ Himself made the believing person right before God, and the believing person blessed by God worships Him and matures in holiness, but does not live perfectly overnight. Christ has not returned yet. The new creation is not complete.

          In short, studying the transition from the OT to NT is an important understanding at the time of the early church. Also the change from sinning a particular sin to not is a helpful study, too.

      • Although there are no references in the NT condemning animal sacrifice apart from Yahshua’s action which speaks for itself .. there is condemnation of animal sacrifice in the OT by the prophet Jeremiah .. Jeremiah explains to the Israelites who have been exiled in Babylon that God did not command burnt offerings and sacrifices .. the fact is their animal sacrifices were an abomination and were not offered to Yahweh but to foreign gods ..

        For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.’ 24 Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward. Jeremiah 7

        • Doing an offering without faith is like Cain. Doing an offering with faith is like Abel. Hebrews 11

          Some Psalms also reveal doing sacrifices without obedience means no faith. The sacrifices without faith in God is a faith in an idol. Doing anything that God commands without faith is an abomination. God by Jeremiah is revealing the same thing. God did not deliver people to do sacrifices. God delivered them to save them. But to claim to have faith and not do the commanded sacrifices is also an abomination and breaking of the Mosaic law. It would be the same as saying one obeys God but does not put faith in The Sacrifice, namely Jesus Christ.

      • The Slaughter Of The Innocent

        http://www.all-creatures.org/hr/hraslaughter.htm

      • Animal Sacrifice
        Many Orthodox Jews and Fundamentalist Christians actively support the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem. The Christians who agitate for this restoration do so because they believe it is God’s will that sacrificial religion be restored. They see the resumption of Temple worship as a sure sign of the Second Coming of Christ.
        And those Jewish people who are anxious to see the resumption of Temple worship believe that ever since the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple, almost two thousand years ago, God has been awaiting the resumption of animal sacrifice.
        Both Christians and Jews avoid the reality of what actually constitutes “Temple worship” by referring to it euphemistically. One Christian writer, typical of others, writes “The [Jewish] people will once again participate in the glories of temple worship…a deep and satisfying spiritual life will be the portion of the nation in that day.” (Ryrie, THE FINAL COUNTDOWN. Emphasis added)

        In our own day, we have never been faced with the realities of sacrificial religion. To modern minds, phrases like the “holy of holies” and the “altar of the Lord” conjure up some sort of ancient, godly society in which priestly men served the Lord in His sanctuary. But the Temple was actually a slaughterhouse, and the linen vestments of the priests were stained red with the blood of their victims. And terms like the “altar of the Lord,” obscure the fact that what is being talked about is the killing and butchering of helpless victims, in the name of God.
        Now, almost two thousand years after this bloody worship was ended by the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple, there are large numbers of Jews and Christians who are working and praying for its restoration. Those who are committed to this cause have no compunction about the massive slaughter of animals that would take place in the name of God. But neither do they have any compunction about a massive slaughter of human beings. They believe this, too, is part of God’s unfolding plan.
        Fundamentalists interpret the scriptures to mean that the horrible suffering of Armageddon, described in the book of Revelation, is God’s will. And like the death of sacrificial animals, they believe these deaths are to be welcomed, rather than avoided. Such people believe that cruelty and violence are the means God will use to introduce His reign of compassion and peace into the world.
        They believe that God is as brutal as men, but because they also believe they will be protected from the horrors to come, they look forward to this apocalyptic reign of terror….

        Once the cult of animal sacrifice was restored, there is no further biblical denouncement of it until the ministry of Jesus. And the message he proclaimed, “I will have mercy, and not sacrifice” (Matt. 9:13) was not new; he was repeating the message Hosea had given, centuries earlier (Hosea 6:6). Neither was his stand against the violence human beings inflicted on each other, as well as on the animals. The prophet Micah had denounced the abuse of both human and animal beings.
        “Hear this, you leaders of the house of Jacob, you rulers of the house of Israel, who despise justice and distort all that is right; who build Zion with bloodshed and Jerusalem with wickedness….yet they lean upon the Lord and say, is not the Lord with us? No disaster will come upon us. Therefore, because of you, Zion will be plowed like a field, Jerusalem will become a heap of rubble, the temple hill a mound overgrown with thickets.” Micah 3:9-12.
        Like Micah, Jesus prophesied against violence: “All who draw the sword will die by the sword.” (Matthew 26:56) And like the prophet, he also foretold the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple. “Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to the buildings. Do you see all these, he asked? I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” (Matthew 24:1,2)
        Jesus foretold this event the day after he had disrupted the sale of animals for slaughter at the Jerusalem Temple.(Mark 11:15-18) Obviously, the people of his own time knew what he was trying to do, because the next day Christ commended one of the teachers of the Law for his understanding. This scribe said that what God wanted was the love of one’s neighbor and of Himself–not the burning bodies of slain animals. And “when Jesus saw that he had spoken wisely, he said to him ‘You are not far from the kingdom of God.'” (Mark 12:32-34)

        http://www.all-creatures.org/hr/hrasacrific.htm

        • thanks, Rev.

          That’s the quote from the NT in which we see Jesus condemning the animal sacrifices and summing up the essence of his teachings (in opposition to those of the traditional hebrew religion) – “what God wanted was THE LOVE of one’s neighbor and of Himself”

          ” Obviously, the people of his own time knew what he was trying to do, because the next day Christ commended one of the teachers of the Law for his understanding. This scribe said that what God wanted was the love of one’s neighbor and of Himself–not the burning bodies of slain animals. And “when Jesus saw that he had spoken wisely, he said to him ‘You are not far from the kingdom of God.’” (Mark 12:32-34)”

          …the LOVE!!…not obedience or fear as with the OT God/YHW.

          • There is no love without the sacrifice. There is no love without Christ, and Jesus is The Christ who was The Sacrifice. The OT people were revealed The Sacrifice to come by the animals sacrifices. God gave the people instruction on His love, represented by the animal sacrifices, which represented The Christ to come.

            • ¨There is no love without the sacrifice.¨
              …there is no real love while forcing other creatures free will/fate…the real sacrifice is sacrificing oneself, not the others, be they humans or animals. imo. all the rest is pagan cult. sorry, adirondack, that’s how I see it. and it’s question of congruence and pure logic. I could not follow a “sacred book” which attacks congruence, because it becomes a cult.
              and we have witnessed lot of cults, which fundamental is to support the sacerdotal cast – the cult to the dictator in the communist times, the cult to Hillary in the oda of “the russians did it” and “fake news”, just to mention a pair of.
              I don’t want to offend in any way your believes, adirondack, you have your free will to make your conscious and informed choices… I’m just exposing my arguments.
              God bless you and all the FTM participants.

              • If everybody looked the same we would get tired of looking at each other. 🙂

              • Sure, express your opinion. I am expressing my opinion, too. 🙂 I am weighing my conclusions in accord with what I believe in. I believe in and put my trust in Christ, not myself, so will come to different conclusions than somebody who places their trust in “sacrificing their own self”.

                Now Christ’s sacrifice on the other hand accomplished the power of salvation. Others died on the cross even that very same day as Jesus did. So the power of salvation definitely has nothing to do with dying on the cross per se. It all has to do with who died on the cross that day, and the God given purpose and meaning of His death.

                Therefore, Christ’s death differed from any other death that had and will ever occur on earth. His death has a distinct power, meaning, and value. His death and resurrection accomplished and merited the very conquering of sin, and profited the bounty of blessings freely given to other people that Christ Himself gained. He gives the blessings of eternal life in the new creation where sick, death, and sin will be no more. Other people die, but never posses the same power, meaning, and value of Christ’s sacrifice.

                Our sacrifice is in a distinctly different manner than Christ’s. When we give up putting our trust and faith in our own self, then we are truly sacrificing. We are not putting faith in our self, but putting our God given faith in His love and kindness in saving us the only way salvation could occur, which is by the hand of a God, and He being the only God, then praise be to Him for being a God who does love enough to breath new life into us for we did not take care of the life He gave us to begin with. So in spite of our own destructive self, God loved us, cared for us, and saved us into His new creation.

                I hold to the only sacrifice that achieves any hope and act of love in being in Christ’s sacrifice, and so I sacrifice myself and put the Scriptural God’s way before mine. God took the punishment we deserve, but people who do not believe He did save us, then reject His work of salvation and go looking for salvation by other vain means that could never do what a God does, the one and only true God.

                LORD bless

          • John the Baptist looked to the OT, and so may we all to understand firstly who John the Baptist is:

            John 1:23, “23 John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, “I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord.’”

            Then, John the Baptist also pointed out what the lamb (blood) sacrifices of the OT meant:

            John 1:29, “29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!”

          • Maria, Do you understand ‘LOVE!!’ .. to have no responsibility or accountability ?? ..
            You need to put the 10 Commandments in perspective .. a nation of people who knew only slavery, with no right to life or property or goods, whose only concern was survival in the wilderness .. in order to become a functioning society it was necessary to establish a constitution with rights and responsibilities .. if you are concerned only with your own rights and needs but unwilling to take responsibility to respect and protect your neighbors rights and needs .. then neither can you expect your right to life and property and goods to be protected and to the extent you ignore those responsibilities, you remain a slave.
            Love is the motive for obedience rather than fear .. fear reverts to a slave/self-survival mentality .. the Love Yahshua spoke of was sacrificial love .. the willingness to give your goods, your property, even your life for your neighbor .. the constitution of the Essene community ..

            Your emphasis on love then suggests your willingness to ‘sell all you have and give the money to the poor’ in your desire to Love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself .. unlike the young man who asked, “What must I do to receive eternal life?” .. but proved himself a hypocrite ! ..

            its inspiring to think you have such passion to follow the Messiah

            • Rev, I believe each one of us, humans on earth, are part of the Creator, and being so, to love God AND our neighbour (of whatever condition he might be) is so very natural as loving ourselves…because it’s all the same. We, each one of us, are not God, but are like tiny drops in that limitless ocean called Universal Creator.

              Jesus came to redirect us (again!…to reinsure us with the forgotten knowledge…or what do we think? that human history on Earth started with Moses and the hebrews?..lol!..) towards the right direction to find our way back to the Creator.

              “Love is the motive for obedience rather than fear ..”

              our Loving Father does not need Obedience. He just awaits for us to make our way to Him, using the tool he created us with – our free will.

              “fear reverts to a slave/self-survival mentality ..”

              exactly. and is very usual in a sect-like religious organisation where the sacerdotal cast lives upon that religious fear.

              “the Love Yahshua spoke of was sacrificial love .. the willingness to give your goods, your property, even your life for your neighbor .. the constitution of the Essene community ..”

              exactly. because the material is an illusion (=Buddism, etc), what really matters is our spiritual world = “Panem nostrum superstancialem da nobis hodie”
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiousios

              • Maria, I want you to know I appreciate who you are .. we may not agree on everything .. but the one thing we agree on is most important .. thanks Maria for being a companion on the journey

              • “We, each one of us, are not God, but are like tiny drops in that limitless ocean called Universal Creator.”

                There is confusion in the teaching of Gnosticism. “We are not God… we are God (Universal Creator).”

                The plain understanding since the beginning of creation is we are not God, and so we are not God.

                • 🙂 we are not the ocean, still we are made of water..

                  • I find it helpful to show differences. It is a real joy. 🙂 I understand that ocean analogy involved the basis of how you draw your conclusions. I think to understand each other, means we respect and truly witness what the other means. I disagree with you, but my intention is to truly witness what you mean and speak of your understanding falsely.

                    I can analogize and be creative too. To use your analogy, but in a different manner, I would phrase my understanding this way:

                    If God is the watery ocean, then I am not made of the watery ocean. I am dry dirt.

                    Analogies can easily break down, and under scrutiny, analogies can lose their intended meaning. I understood your analogy, so I phrased my understanding using the same similes, but in a different substantial manner. So what I am writing is dry dirt is something totally distinct and different than water. The dry dirt was never always there, but God was always there. God created the dirt, which is different than just using what was laying around. The dirt had a beginning and was not always there just laying around.

                    Water was never always there either, but God was always there. So to think of the analogy of water too literally, would be to lose track of the intended understanding of what an analogy is, and therefore to misunderstand my analogy. Not that anybody misunderstood, but I have established a boundary now to determine how I would analogize my understanding of God. Under scrutiny, God is not bound by man-made analogies, because such analogies come from man. God Himself had to reveal who He is. Parables revealed from God are not man-made, and so, such analogies, if the term fits, are credible, because God only truly knows what it is to be a God. Man does not, for man is not God.

                    I know you write man is not God, but what am I supposed to focus on in the analogy? The Ocean is God. Ocean is water. Man is water. Man is(?) god. The part of the ocean in being water is still part of the ocean; in other words, all the parts are the whole. Wholes always have parts and parts, by definition, are parts of a greater whole. I would write, man is not a part of the whole God. Man is something distinctly other than God. Man was created, not just something laying around in eternity. Now God on the other hand was just something ‘laying around’ in eternity.

                    • is the tiny cell, one amongst *^%&%&(^ millions in your brain your brain in fact? or your conscious? is this cell in fact you, adirondack?

                    • My brain is me. My one tiny cell of the brain is me. God is a different brain and cell altogether. I am not maria either, nor Thomas, Jane, or Don my neighbor.

                      Man’s analogy will only reflect man. For man to know God, God Himself had to reveal to man who He Himself is. I believe that is what happened with Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, David, Paul, James, etc., and God instructed them to write down His revelation to them, so others not present at the time, or whether due to geographic location or a distance of history.

                      Man can not know God, for man is not God, and so man does not know what it is to be a God. Just like we do not truly know what it is be a plant. Yet God being God who had created man and therefore knows and provides all that man is; God knows how to instruct man as to who He (God) is, because He knows how man understands, for He gave the very life of man.

                    • I got your point. thanks for sharing 🙂

          • The requirement to receive eternal life taught by Yahshua is very effective cutting through the rhetoric of those claiming to be followers of the Messiah .. as Counterfeit Christianity only requires 10% .. a mere token .. symbolic of their hypocritical commitment …. it is not the ‘Narrow Gate’ Yahshua spoke of .. “few there are that find it” .. yet they will claim, ‘ they are not under the law’ .. but the law of 10% is held sacred with the false promise of blessing and prosperity.

            • what do you mean by this, Rev?
              “yet they will claim, ‘ they are not under the law’”

              which is “the law/100%”?
              which is the “Counterfeit = only 10% Christianity”?

              • Christianity preaches the easy gospel of salvation by faith in Jesus ..
                you will never hear Christianity preach the requirement to receive eternal life is to ‘sell all you have and give the money to the poor’ 100% ..

                the claim we are ‘not under the law’ is the teaching of Paul regarding ‘saved by faith alone’ in opposition to the teaching of James .. faith without works is dead

                The easy gospel will only cost you 10% .. because your checkbook needs to get saved too

                • there are various ways/speeds to go back to the Creator:

                  using a Formula 1 car = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_of_Assisi

                  or just walking = the “10% christianity” as you call it. by walking one would need %^&%^*)( lives to learn and so go out of samsara…

                • James and Paul agree. The misunderstanding is due to not understanding the gospel of Jesus Christ. To understand James and Paul agree is to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ.

                  Paul wrote “faith working through love” (Galatians 5:6). James wrote “faith without works is dead” (James 2:17). Same thing. What Paul points out is one must have faith in Christ, in Christ alone is our salvation. James points out the same thing by writing he is a bond-servant of the Lord Jesus Christ (James 1:1) and we are to hold our faith in Lord Jesus Christ (James 2:1).

                  James, like Paul, also points out if there are no works, then there is no faith. Obviously when Abraham took his son Isaac to be sacrificed, as James points out in chapter two of his epistle, James was not saying ‘good works’ are love your neighbor, because Abraham killing his son is not an act of love to Isaac, same goes for the historical event with Rahab. The good works are Abraham listened to God and Abraham’s faith was publically seen because he did listen to God and did what God commanded. Abraham also thought Isaac would be resurrected for God can raise anybody from the dead (Hebrews 11:17-19). James gives a second example of what he means by “faith without works is dead”, for he wrote of Rahab showed good works. She lied to her neighbors, so how is she showing love to them? How, by hiding the Israeli spies from the king of Jericho and lied about them being in her house. Rahab showed good works because of her faith in God and doing all that God commanded, which in that case was, hide the spies for justice and love are of God not he king of Jericho.

                  Paul wrote some say we have grace so we should go on sinning? Paul answered – God forbid! Of course you do not go on sinning (Romans 6:1-2). Paul also pointed out some report people are to do evil so good may come, but Paul condemned such evil misunderstandings (Romans 3:8). Paul also wrote against hypocritical love, and how God reveals “we are to abhor what is evil; cling to what is good (Romans 12:9)”. The civil magistrate is to punish evil as revealed in the law (Romans 13:8), for we are to love our neighbor not murder them, etc. (Romans 13:10). As with Moses, God gives mercy to who He will, because unbelievers are against God and nobody who is against is with.

                  The understanding is spiritual as James wrote, “But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the see whose furit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace (James 3:17-18).”

                  As what Peter wrote, “To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:1).”

  10. THE REFORMED GRECO ROMAN HELLENISTIC CULT

    CHRISTIANITY .. As stated previously officially started with the first gentile Bishop Marcus who acquiesced to Roman Law imposed by Hadrian forbidding the Hebrew believers from obeying the Torah / 10 Commandments .. the first commandment “I am the LORD your God .. You shall have no other gods before me” .. was intolerable to Hadrian and viewed as a direct threat to Roman rule .. Observing the Sabbath again was a direct threat to Roman rule as Rome followed an 8 day calendar .. the Biblical Calendar was a Lunar calendar in conflict with the Roman calendar as the Sabbath was not a fixed day .. the choice was obey God or submit to Rome .. those who submitted to Rome abandoned the Torah given to Moses .. the Nazarenes refused to submit to Hadrian.

    HELLENISM .. Jews based in Alexandria during the Maccabee period embraced both Greek religion and culture and later Roman religion and culture and transitioned easily under Hadrian then creating the Greek New Testament writings at the Catechetical School of Alexandria .. GRECO ROMAN HELLENISTIC

    REFORMED .. the Reformation changed nothing .. Christianity in all its forms remains under Roman rule observing the pagan feast days continuing the apostacy since 135 AD adopting the Roman/Gregorian Calendar

    CULT .. Christianity worships the Bible as ‘Closed Canon’ meaning it cant be questioned .. it’s the final authority .. other known scriptures are forbidden and have been removed ..

    ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.

  11. There is only one location possible .. 25,000 gallons of water were required to wash away the blood of 18,000 animals at Passover .. the only source of water is the Gihon spring ..

  12. XPHCTIAN (CHRESTIAN) = XPICTIAN (CHRISTIAN)

  13. Pagan worshippers of Serapis were called Christians before the Messiah was even born ! ..

    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis
      “Serapis figured among the international deities whose cult was received and disseminated throughout the Roman Empire”
      “The Theodosian decree of 380 implicitly included the cult in its general proscription of religions other than approved forms of Nicene Christianity.”

      • Chrestianos, Christianos, Jesus, Paul, Pharisees and Myths
        http://www.arthuride.com/chrestianos-christianos-jesus-paul-pharisees-and-myths/

      • The Persian influence of Zoraster and Mithra

        Modern Christians who erroneously believe that what is today called Christianity started with Jesus, will be unable to relate to the words of Eusebius that “our doctrines of religion… have been established by the natural understanding… and [is] the same religion as those divinely favored men of old”. The early Gentile Christians knew this fact, and it was for this reason that a copy of Plato’s Republic and other such writings was contained among the writings preserved in the recently discovered Nag Hammadi Library of early Christian writings. St. Augustine wrote: “That, in our times, is the Christian religion, which to know and follow is the most sure and certain health, called according to that name, but not according to the thing itself, of which it is the name; for the thing itself which is now called the Christian religion, really was known to the ancients, nor was wanting at any time from the beginning of the human race, until the time when Christ came in the flesh, from whence the true religion, which had previously existed, began to be called Christian; and this in our days is the Christian religion, not as having been wanting in former times, but as having in later times received this name” (Opera Augustini, vol. i, p.12). What this means is that the Jesus in the existing Gospels was converted by the Church to support the tenets of Mithraism, which was the universal religion of the empire. The problem is that the original teachings of The Way had absolutely nothing in common with what came to be called Christianity under Pagan Rome….

        Eusebius starts off his history of the church by first explaining where the name came from: “Moses was the first to make known the name of Christ as a name especially august and glorious. When he delivered types and symbols of heavenly things, and mysterious images, in accordance with the oracle which said to him, “Look that thou make all things according to the pattern which was shown thee in the mount,” he consecrated a man high priest of God, in so far as that was possible, and him he called Christ. And thus to this dignity of the high priesthood, which in his opinion surpassed the most honorable position among men, he attached for the sake of honor and glory the name of Christ.”

        “He knew so well that in Christ was something divine. And the same one foreseeing, under the influence of the divine Spirit, the name Jesus, dignified it also with a certain distinguished privilege. For the name of Jesus, which had never been uttered among men before the time of Moses, he applied first and only to the one who he knew would receive after his death, again as a type and symbol, the supreme command.”–Eusebius, “Church HIstory”, Book 1, Chapter 1. By the way there is absolutely no evidence that there ever was a Moses and there is no mention of either Jesus or Christ in the Old Testament, but then again that is why Catholics were forbidden to read the bible under penalty of death.

        Of course his name was not Jesus Christ nor was Eusebius talking about Jesus since there was no ‘J’ at that time. Prior to the Nicene Council there were a number of Christian sects who had adopted Hesus Christos as their Lord and Savior. The name Hesus comes from the third member of the Druid trinity. There had been a number of Christs prior to Jesus like the Black Christ, or the Christed One and of course, Christos from the Indian god Krishna who at that time was known as Christ or Christos. Also due to a poor translation in the Septuagint the term Christ became synonymous with the Jewish term Messiah. As a result it was not uncommon for the high priest of Israel to be known as the Christ. So, although Eusebius waxed on ad nauseam about Jesus Christ, it is clear that his Jesus was an ethereal or supernatural Christ and not one of the flesh.

        The fact that the Christians had usurped the scriptures of Zoroaster from Persia did not go unnoticed. Just prior to the reign of Constantine there was a great Christian persectuion during the reign of the Emperor Diocletian. It is an historically well chronicled event, but no one seemed to understand why it happened. So, here is the reason: “For all men of intelligence knew the story of Jesus Christ was nothing but the old story of Christos or Crishna of India revived. And when called upon to show what they believed they could show nothing but the writings of Marcion and Lucian, Romans who stole the writings of Apollonius of Tyana….”–J.M. Roberts, ‘Antiquity Unvelied’, Testimony of Caius Valerius Maximianus Galerius, Emperor of Rome

        http://www.nazoreans.com/persian_influence.html

        • “Eusebius that “our doctrines of religion… have been established by the natural understanding… and [is] the same religion as those divinely favored men of old”.”
          point on.


          Apollonius of Tyana

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana

        • “Christianity started with Jesus, will be unable to relate to the words of Eusebius that “our doctrines of religion… have been established by the natural understanding… and [is] the same religion as those divinely favored men of old”.”

          Christianity knows the favored men of old are written in the OT. Eusebius is relatable, not difficult. Everybody was looking for the Messiah, The Christ, and then He came, namely Jesus. Though unbelievers looked for a savior, they did not have the Holy Spirit to witness to them, due to their unbelief, who The Savior will be and to be looking for Him. Unbelievers turn to their own self. Even when they look to other leaders to ‘show them the way’, the way taught to them is only a way they themselves have to save their own self. Christianity reveals Christ, meaning God Himself, saved them. Difference.

  14. The Mystery of Jesus Christ and the ‘False Messiah’
    “the mystery of our religion is great”—1Timothy 3:16

    It only seems logical that the Christian religion was named after its founder Jesus Christ, but alas that is not true. The term Christian had been in use for some time already before Jesus was even born. In a letter, written in 134 CE, from the Emperor Adrian to Servianus it is stated: “Egypt, which you commended to me, my dearest Servianus, I have found to be wholly fickle and inconsistent, and continually wafted about by every breath of fame. The worshipers of Serapis are called Christians, and those who are devoted to the god Serapis, call themselves Bishops of Christ”. What is confirmed is that, with the advent of Jesus, the Christ or Christos was not a new term, and there were people throughout the empire who were called Christians prior to the time when the name came to be associated with the followers of Jesus. Serapis preceded Jesus by more than two centuries. More important, though, is the fact that the new pagan converts brought their ideas and beliefs pertaining to the Mithraic Christ into the religion of Jesus.

    Eusebius, the great historian of the early Church, admits that the religion that is called Christianity was known to the ancients (Eccl. Hist., 1, ch iv) and writes that the religion of Jesus had “…been known among all nations, nevertheless our life and our conduct, with our doctrines of religion, have not been lately invented by us, but from the first creation of man, so to speak, have been established by the natural understanding of divinely favored men of old… What then should prevent the confession that we who are of Christ practice one and the same mode of life and have one and the same religion as those divinely favored men of old? Whence it is evident that the perfect religion committed to us by the teaching of Christ is not new and strange, but, if the truth must be spoken, it is the first and the true religion”.

    http://www.nazoreans.com/mystery_of_jesus_christ.html

    • “Whence it is evident that the perfect religion committed to us by the teaching of Christ is not new and strange, but, if the truth must be spoken, it is the first and the true religion”.
      bingo!


      “Christos” = “Anointed One”, “the Messiah”, “the Christ”
      http://biblehub.com/greek/5547.htm

      • The term is not new. The Hebrews were always looking for the Messiah since the promise was given to Adam and Eve of The Savior (Genesis 3:15). When people apostasies away from the church from the time of Adam and Eve, some groups of people hold onto tradition longer than others, but they do not know the meaning of their rituals and teachings, because of their pride they try to be gods and try to do what only God can and does do.

        An easy Sunday School lesson in any church.

  15. ‘An easy Sunday School lesson in any church.’ ..

    So Yahusha is English for the Hebrew name of the Messiah (anointed King of Israel) and Jesus is the name of the Greek “good man” or Chistos. It is that simple. But what does “Iesous” mean in Greek. It has no meaning in Hebrew; as it is not a Hebrew word. In Greek, “Iesous” literally translated means “Hail Zeus”. The name “Jesus” didn’t even exist until the 4th Century and was a later derivative of the late Latin Isus.
    “It is known that the Greek name endings with sus, seus, and sous were attached by the Greeks to names and geographical areas as means to give honor to their supreme deity, Zeus.”
    Dictionary of Christian Lore and Legend

    There are many Christians unaware of this truth .. but those familiar with the postings on this page and others .. who continue to promote the worship of the false diety are not merely brainwashed but are either willfully ignorant or a whore for the pope and luther ..

    Let’s unravel the mystery religion .. follow the hands ..

    “Serapis, or Jupiter Serapis, the Egyptian divinity whose bust is placed upon the mons Jovis of the hand, was chiefly worshipped at Alexandria.

    • The hand signs are significant.

    • Rev, the hands are significant, yes, but I need we need more research on that sign…
      remember the paintings (of leonardo & other renaissance painters) & statue I posted on this thread..
      https://seeker401.wordpress.com/2017/11/22/500-year-old-da-vinci-painting-sells-for-record-592-million-at-auction/#comments

      many times a genuine esoteric symbol is being highjacked by the “dark side” or simply by impostors, deleting so the original significance of that symbol…remember “the star of david” which is nothing else than the symbol of “as above so below”…

      the hands signs are normally “mudra”s…

      • The People That History Forgot
        http://www.askelm.com/people/peo000.htm

        scroll down for active chapter links
        http://www.askelm.com/people/index.asp

        • have you read the book?
          a synopsis definition of those “people who history forgot”? who were they? phenicians? trojans? others?

          • I just recently came across this book, searched for it on amazon $43 but on amazon oddly it has no description .. the author Ernest L Martin see above videos .. Where will next Temple be built and Jerusalem Cornerstone .. the few chapters I have read of significance discuss the issue I have wrestled with for 10 years .. Romans/Phonecians/Edomites .. the migrations that have changed the world clearly identifying those who rule over us

            • who were the people ruling over the middle east/Palestina before the romans, according to this book? who were the people who history forgot?

              • The name Phoenicia is of later Greek derivation. The original inhabitants of this area were Canaanites (Heb. Kenaaniy), or descendants of Canaan, son of Ham. The Hebrew word Kenaaniy actually means a merchant or trafficker, a particularly appropriate appellation for those who dwelled in Phoenicia, since they became the greatest of the sea traders, their fleets literally traversing the globe.

                The significance of the Phoenician peoples in ancient history cannot possibly be overstated, both in terms of their maritime achievements, their colonization efforts, and the part they played in the affairs of other great nations long after it is assumed that they vanished from the world scene.

                The most ancient authoritative information on Phoenicia comes to us from the Canaanite historian Sanchaniathon. Predating even the era of the great Greek poet Homer, he provides us with some very pertinent and most enlightening facts concerning the origins of the Phoenicians. According to Sanchaniathon, a people from the area of the Erythraean Sea migrated into the Galilee and from there to the seacoast. The imminent Greek historian Herodotus confirms this as well.

                ref ..
                http://www.allofapiece.com/cs/esau_3.htm#PHOENICIANS

    • very interesting the “Jesus” etymology…could you please try to go deeper? thanks.
      just to mention that the greeks took/borrowed their gods, Zeus included, from the previous peoples that inhabited the region, the pelasgians and fenicians amongst others…

      • Identity theft is accomplished by concealing one’s true identity and assuming the identity of another ..
        Satan has deceived the entire world by changing the name of the Messiah .. the Messiah said, “I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.” .. if He came in His Father’s name, it begs the question .. what is His Father’s name?
        the prophets came in the name of the Father as seen in their authentic Hebrew names .. YIRMEYAHU/Jeremiah .. YESHA’YAHU/Isaiah .. ZAKARYAHU/Zechariah .. YAHSHUA/Joshua

        Peter on trial before the Sanhedrin, declared there is ONLY ONE NAME by which you may be saved ..

        “By what power, or IN WHAT NAME, have you done this?”
        8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people, 9 if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well, 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by THE NAME OF YAHUSA HA MASHIACH, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—BY THIS NAME this man stands here before you in good health. 11 He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4

        The Messiah was Hebrew not Greek .. it is interesting the Greek translator’s found it necessary to change the name of the Messiah yet did not find it necessary to change the name of SATAN ..

        ANTICHRIST means in place of or substitution .. Satan has assumed the identity of the Messiah by transposing the false identity JESUS CHRIST .. I understand this is difficult for many people to accept and will be rejected by many .. but this is the great delusion .. And the great dragon was hurled down — the ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. Rev 12

        I have no doubt every effort has been made to corrupt the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation yet I believe with equal effort the truth hidden therein may be found .. I hold no fault with those who unknowingly believe in the false identity but those who knowingly continue to teach in the name of the false identity are raping the hearts and minds of sincere people with their doctrine .. claiming to be an authority on truth.

        The Jews also in assuming the identity of the Hebrews prevent many people from even tolerating the mention of Hebrew names thus maintaining the deception .. what if the Hebrews were Black ? .. not White European Khazar .. would there be a different perception of the Hebrews ? .. What if the Messiah was Black does that change your perception of the deception ?

        • “I have no doubt every effort has been made to corrupt the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation yet I believe with equal effort the truth hidden therein may be found ..”

          I totally agree. In the same way, ‘men’ of these false churches / religions, want to tell us what the bible means, I think the bible reveals their lies and exposes them, IF one has eyes to see. I also think you won’t be able to ‘see’ unless you are truly and genuinely searching for the TRUTH, and you must have the LIGHT within you, in order to see and interpret for yourself the difference between the lies and the Truth.

          • The following is my understanding.

            People do write and preach what the Bible means. Everybody here is doing that, even if they write the Bible’s meaning, as is, is a corrupt meaning.

            So is everything corrupt? No. God is not corrupt.

            Man is corrupt, but God is not corrupt. God’s Word is not corrupted, if one has eyes to see, which to see does have to do with “genuinely searching for the Truth”. Since man is corrupt, the Light of Christ through the Holy Spirit sent by the love of the Father must be within, but the Light is not me. The Light is God witnessing to me what the Truth of Him is as He had revealed by His Word now written. He, being uncorrupted, is able to overcome the sin in me, for only God is powerful enough to overcome sin, and only God creates the life in me to “see”, for only God creates the “light” in man for man to see, and only God creates the “truth” in man for man to understand. Only God, being uncorrupted, is able to discern the difference between the lies and the truth, and so, I do not depend on my corrupt, finite self, but the infinite Truth of God to create in me the understanding of Truth as He had revealed in His now written Word.

            I can use the same words, but use the words recognizing only God is perfect, not man, and also, I recognize all may look in the Bible to understand its’ meaning, but some write that the meaning of the Bible is corrupted, and others write the meaning of the Bible is uncorrupted. I have no reason, or persuasion, to believe and think the Bible is corrupted. I have all the reason, and persuasion, to believe and think the Bible is the fully recorded revelation and message of Jesus Christ.

          • anyone with ‘eyes to see’ understands the original author’s of the ‘Word of God’ were inspired but not translators .. who made many errors .. and only a blind fool refuses to see the obvious .. insisting the bible is without error .. pontificating their self-righteous superior knowledge .. proving themselves blind teachers who have no need to learn because they know it all ..

            ‘Eventually I conceded that it was not in ignorance that most bible translations have many flaws. Since the invention of the printing press and the Protestant Reformation when the Holy Scriptures were translated from the original Hebrew and Aramaic languages respectively, translators in almost every case have used an anti-Torah and anti-Hebrew premise during the production of their particular translations. I have studied and perceived that some translations are third and forth generations away from the original language. Each translation strays farther from the original text and becomes watered down and more distant from the truth. It is very clear from the historical, archeological and biblical evidence in the world today that the original Tanach, known to many as the Old Testament was indeed first written in the ancient Paleo Hebrew language.

            It is also proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the New Testament was not originally written in Greek, but was written in Aramaic (the everyday spoken language of our Savior Yahshua) and later translated into Greek. It is not the purpose of this manuscript to try to prove this fact with countless details and examples to the skeptic, but to simply put the original Hebrew and Aramaic manuscripts together for the true body of Messiah. (This is another prophetic point of all things being restored” in the last days.) The following are a few examples: The New Testament is filled with Aramaic words such as “Talithaqumi” in Mark 5:41, and “Corban” in Mark 7:11, or “Ephatha” in Mark 7:34 as well as many other places. What is most interesting is that in the Greek manuscripts where these Aramaic words are, it states directly after the Aramaic phrase the words “which is being translated as”.

            I would also like to say that although I do believe the Hebrew Masoretic text of the Tanach or Old Covenant is indeed the oldest and overall most reliable source of scripture that we have, I also want to caution that the lying pen of the scribes has not kept the Masoretic text without fault. There has been several areas where the translators of the Masoretic text purposely changed scripture to fit their own theology.

            Don Esposito. Hebraic Roots Bible (Kindle Locations 78-81). Congregation of YHWH Jerusalem. Kindle Edition.

            • Well said Rev. thanks for all of your research, it’s appreciated.

              • +1

              • I first commented here Dec 21, 2011 and I am very grateful to be a part of the ftm family of Truth seekers .. you Int and Maria, Seek, xxx .. who I got to tangle with early on but I recovered and have developed the highest respect for .. others are missed .. Nomnom, Dthorn, Ghog .. I wish all of health and TRUTH

                • We all learn from each other because we all bring differing opinions and beliefs. The understanding of this world is added to daily and that’s thanks to all the commenters. Sadly over 8 years there will be those who shine bright for a period then fade away. This can be for many reasons. I feel my role is to light fires and then see where it gets taken by the posters. Sometimes we get a wildfire! Thanks to all.

                  • cheers seek .. thanks for creating the opportunity for everyone to be heard

                  • Seeker, you’re the best, you know we love you and appreciate you letting us express ourselves here, and going down all those deep rabbit holes we’ve found ourselves in. Merry Christmas to you and your beautiful family. I hope we’re all safe and sound this time next year, especially our friends on the site who are in targeted areas of the evil ones.

                    • Thats very kind int. Best wishes for Xmas and the festive season to you and yours. Peace 🙂

                    • + 1, Rev & Intrigued!!
                      Best wishes to you, seek and of course all participants of FTM.
                      May your hearts are filled with internal peace and enthusiasm (= from the Greek ἐνθουσιασμός from ἐν and θεός and οὐσία, meaning “possessed by [a] god’s essence”) 🙂

                      (Rev, take a look:
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enthusiasm
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euchites
                      “The state of perfection, freedom from the world and passion, is therefore attained solely by prayer, not through the church, baptism and or any of the sacraments, which have no effect on the passions or the influence of evil on the soul (hence their name, which means “Those who pray”).”)

                    • Maria, those who don’t follow the program are considered heretics .. for some prayer is a ritual .. some pretend to pray but its really a sermon .. some think God needs reminders .. when I was 12 years old, angered by the cruelties of life, I went up on the mountain outside the city determined to have a talk with God, demanding .. ‘WHY AM I HERE! ?? .. I heard not an audible voice but an inner voice, as I looked out over the city .. ‘Your life will be different’ .. I knew in that moment there was another path .. ‘I knew you before you were in your mother’s womb’ .. became my reality .. in that moment I rejected religion and education .. my path has not been easy but its my Truth .. and I wouldn’t change it for another

                    • I love this Rev….It took me a long time to realize after being indoctrinated into the legions, that God’s expectations of us, are quite simple really, but it seems ‘men’ have made it so hard for their own selfish reasons. 🙂
                      Yes – those who do not follow the program are considered heretics or are burned at the stake as ‘witches’ oh, the irony!
                      YES -Man made ‘religion’ IS to control our thoughts, our actions, and to put us under those who wish to rule over us. Education is indoctrination. Knowledge is great, wisdom is knowing what to do with that knowledge. Put no gods before the Creator Father, (He IS the Creator of all things, and obviously only He is concerned about what’s best for us)
                      Love thy Neighbor because in doing so, you can’t possibly do any harm/break any commandments, this is walking the path that Christ came to teach. It’s pretty darn simple.

                    • clothed in false righteousness they stalk vulnerable unsuspecting victims .. their prayer is not directed to God but craftily designed to invade your heart and mind attempting to manipulate and control you .. stealing your soul

                    • not all religion/religious is bad, not at all. I’ve done the opposite path – I’ve been baptised by my grand-parents in the clandestinity during the years when the state religion was the atheism and so raised in absolute lack of God, so I’ve seen how very much a guide/guidance towards God is extremely important in our times of extreme materialism and nihilism.

                      and yes, Rev, I agree that “those who don’t follow the program are considered heretics” and always the struggle of the power is for our souls. has been so during the first christian councils, is so now with the anti-culture of consumism/materialism/sexualism.

                      I’m convinced that the path the church/es show is the correct one, but am convinced as well that the clue for the “real upgrade” of the soul has been expelled long ago from the teachings of today religion/s. (“heretisms”, “asterism” etc) So, it’s a very personal struggle/path that one should pursue / find towards our Creator. That should be really, the sense of one’s life. In the Truth. as much as possible.

                      thank to all of you for being companions in this journey.

                • Thanks Rev, I love your posts and have learned a lot from you. I have come to feel like most everyone here is a friend, and many of us have been here from the very beginning and before there was an FTM. I’ve learned so much from the people here and couldn’t be more grateful for it. There are some that I wish were still here, I miss them a lot, as they were a big part of my own eye opening to the truth of how our world really is. I wish only the best for all today and in the new year to come.

            • God is without error, so the Bible is without error. The message of Jesus The Christ in Scripture is without error. Unbelievers scheme, but to no avail. The world had fallen, but Jesus, You, had a face like flint. The worldly scatter and try to hide from Your Might oh Holy One of Israel. They have no firm foundation and are blown about like autumn leaves.

              The men who wrote down the Word of God, wrote down The God’s incorruptible message of Jesus The Christ. Jesus being the only and unique Son of God took on a man’s body to save and give faith in His work and Person from the eternal wrath that troubles those that are against You God even this day, but you give them their just deserts for an eternity under your righteous wrath. Praise be to God for providing a Way by saving a people who do believe, love, and hold You to be, oh, so precious. Our sin and wickedness is a tremendous dishonor and wrong against You God, and, You God, have been loving and merciful. We are able to witness and worship the Truth of Your incorruptible Love and Righteousness. No man is able to withstand and though there are those who in their own hearts waver away from You Oh LORD, You God, never waver in who You are, and Your plan of salvation, and what You did in the Lord Jesus Christ all the Praise to You oh God!

          • THE “I AM” lecture of Rudolf Steiner (the founder of the theosophy, the “white variant” of the late 19th century esoteric christianity):

            http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA103/English/AP1962/19080525p01.html

            …about the direct contact / relation between man and God, without the intermediation of priests and institutionalised churches…

      • see below .. The Corruption of the Greek Name Iesous (Jesus)

    • Yes, they like the hand signs. They are corrupt.

      On the other hand, in Scripture we are revealed by God who the true Jesus is:

      Matthew 1:21b, “you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

    • 7. ardha pathaka

      http://onlinebharatanatyam.com/2007/09/24/ardhapataka-hand-gesture-mudra/

      “the Buddhist ardhapataka mudra – a sign of protection and a gesture to dispel undesirable elements from one’s life.”

      https://thewire.in/199263/buddhist-mudra-da-vincis-painting-christ-proof-cross-cultural-influences-ancient-world/

  16. Serapis Blessing

    The back cover shows the Sarapis blessing with the image of Sarapis displayed in the palm of the right hand. The artifacts are building tools showing the desire to create a new society. Some animals are “changeable” ones depicting the change to the new society: the snake changes his skin, the chameleon changes its color, and the tadpole changes into the frog. The tortoise was an emblem of Mercury and Venus, and the Ibis (stork) was universally sacred to Isis and indicates birth — the “new birth” of being like Sarapis. The scales show that all judgment belongs to Sarapis the Judge of the dead.
    Sculpture shown in G.J.F. Kater-Sibbes, Preliminary Catalogue of Sarapis Monuments (Leiden: Brill, 1973), #1018, plate 32.

  17. The cult of Serapis was to have sweeping success throughout Greece and Asia Minor, especially in Rome, where it became the most popular religion. There was a Serapis temple in Rome as early as 105 BC. Initiation into the Serapis cult included the rite of baptism, and Sir Alan Gardiner, the British Egyptologist, argued in the Journal of Egyptian Archaeology in 1950 that Egyptian baptism should be seen as analogous to Christian baptism, of which he commented: “In both cases a symbolic cleansing by means of water serves as initiation into a properly legitimated religious life.” The cults of Serapis and Isis did not merely survive the emergence of Christianity, but in the 2nd century AD actually increased in popularity. Serapis and Christ existed side-by-side and were frequently seen as interchangeable. Some early Christians made no distinction between Christ and Serapis and frequently worshipped both, while paintings of Isis with her son Horus became identified by early Christians as portraits of Mary with her son Jesus. The rite of baptism, part of the initiation ceremony of the Serapis cult, was also adopted by the Church as part of its initiation ceremony.

    In AD 134, after a visit to Alexandria, the Emperor Hadrian wrote a letter to his elderly brother-in-law, Servianus, in which he commented: “So you praise Egypt, my very dear Servianus! I know the land from top to bottom . . . In it the worshippers of Serapis are Christians, and those who call themselves Bishops of Christ pay their vows to Serapis . . . Whenever the patriarch himself comes to Egypt he is made to worship Serapis by some and Christ by others.” (https://dwij.org/forum/amarna/8_serapis_and_christianity.htm)

  18. FORGED CHRISTIANITY

    “CHRISTIANS” IN USE BEFORE CHRIST
    It only seems logical that the Christian religion was named after its founder Jesus Christ, but alas that is not true. The term Christian had been in use for some time already before Jesus was even born. In a letter, written in 134 CE, from the Emperor Adrian to Servianus it is stated: “Egypt, which you commended to me, my dearest Servianus, I have found to be wholly fickle and inconsistent, and continually wafted about by every breath of fame. The worshipers of Serapis are called Christians, and those who are devoted to the god Serapis, call themselves Bishops of Christ”. What is confirmed is that, with the advent of Jesus, the Christ or Christos was not a new term, and there were people throughout the empire who were called Christians prior to the time when the name came to be associated with the followers of Jesus. Serapis preceded Jesus by more than two centuries. More important, though, is the fact that the new pagan converts brought their ideas and beliefs pertaining to the Mithraic Christ into the religion of Jesus.

    Eusebius, the great historian of the early Church, admits that the religion that is called Christianity was known to the ancients (Eccl. Hist., 1, ch iv) and writes that the religion of Jesus had “…been known among all nations, nevertheless our life and our conduct, with our doctrines of religion, have not been lately invented by us, but from the first creation of man, so to speak, have been established by the natural understanding of divinely favored men of old… What then should prevent the confession that we who are of Christ practice one and the same mode of life and have one and the same religion as those divinely favored men of old? Whence it is evident that the perfect religion committed to us by the teaching of Christ is not new and strange, but, if the truth must be spoken, it is the first and the true religion”.

    http://www.nazarenesoftheway.com/Forged-Christianity.php

  19. “Do Christians have a civil or political interest in Jerusalem? Surely but we are just as sure to disagree about what that is. Some of us think that, for historical, geo-political reasons, that Jerusalem should be recognized as the capital of modern the state of Israel. Others disagree. That is all well and good but Christians should not be speaking about the earthly city of Jerusalem as if it were heaven nor of the essence of the faith nor as if it is the place where Christ intends to rebuild the temple and re-institute the sacrifices. That is nigh unto blasphemy. Christ died “once for all (Heb 7:27; 9:12; 10:10) to pay for the sins of his people. He is not being figuratively sacrificed now by Roman priests nor will he be memorially sacrificed by Levitical priests in a re-built temple. Christ is the temple (John 2:19). He is the priesthood (see Heb 7–10). He is the lamb (John 1:29). “It is finished.””

    https://heidelblog.net/2017/12/on-distinguishing-the-jerusalem-that-is-below-from-that-which-is-above/

  20. The Corruption of the Greek Name Iesous (Jesus)

    Many Hebrew names of the Old Testament prophets have been “Hellenised” when these names were rewritten in the Greek New Testament. Thus, Isaiah became Isaias, Elisha became Elissaios or Elisseus (Eliseus),and Elijah became Helias in the Greek New Testament. The King James Version has retained some of these Hellenised names. Since the King James Version was published, the newer English versions have ignored these Hellenised names of the Greek New Testament, and have preferred, quite correctly, to render them as they are found in the Hebrew Old Testament. Incidentally, the similarity between the Hellenised Helias (instead of Elijah) and the Greek Sun-deity Helios, gave rise to the well-known assimilation of these two by the Church. Dr. A.B. Cook, in his book, Zeus – A Study in Ancient Religion, vol. I p. 178 – 179, elaborates on this, quoting the comments of a 5th century Christian poet and others, on this. Imagine it, Elijah identified with Helios, the Greek Sun-deity! Returning to our discussion on the reluctance of the translators to persist with all of the Hellenised names in the Greek of the New Testament, one could very well ask: But why did they persist with the Hellenised Iesous of Messiah’s Name, and its further Latinised form Iesus? It is accepted by many that His Hebrew name was Yahusha (meaning Yahuh-ah, The Father, sha (saves) through The Son [Mat 1:21]). So why did the translators of the scriptures not restore it, as they did with the names of the Hebrew prophets? It is generally agreed that our successor to Moses, was Joshua. The Greeks substituted the Old Testament “Yehoshua” with Iesous, the same word they used for Yahusha (true name of Messiah) in the New Testament. Subsequently the Latin’s came and substituted it with Josue (Iosue) in the Old Testament (which became Josua in German and Joshua in English), but used Iesus in the New Testament.

    Two factors contributed greatly to the substitution and distortion of Yahusha’s Name. The first was the un-Scriptural superstitious teaching of the Jews that the Father’s Name is not to be uttered, that it is ineffable, that others will profane it when they use it, and that the Name must be “disguised” outside of the temple of Jerusalem. Because of the Father’s name being in His Son’s Name, this same disastrous suppression of the Name resulted in them (The Greeks) giving a Hellenised, in fact a surrogate name for Yahusha. He did warn us in Joh 5:43, “I have come in My Father’s Name . . . if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.” The second factor was a strong antiJewish “culture” that prevailed amongst the Gentiles, as we have already pointed out. The Gentiles wanted a saviour, but not a Jewish one. They loathed the Jews, they even loathed the The Mighty One of the Old Testament. Thus, a Hellenised Saviour was preferred. The Hellenised theological school at Alexandria, led by the syncretising, allegorising, philosophising, Gnostic-indoctrinated Clement and Origen, was the place where everything started to become distorted and adapted to suit the Gentiles. The Messianic Faith, and its Saviour, had to become Hellenised to be acceptable to the Gentiles.

    Where did the Greek name “Iesous” and Latin name “Iesus” come from? In Bux and Schone, Worterbuch der Antike, under “Jesus”, we read, “JESUS: really named Jehoshua. Iesous (Greek), Iesus (Latin) is adapted from the Greek, possibly from the name of a Greek healing goddess Ieso (Iaso).” Like all authoritative sources, this dictionary admits to the real true name of Yahusha. It then states, as most others, that the commonly known substitute, non-original, non-real name “Jesus” was adapted from the Greek. We must remember that Yahusha was born from a Hebrew virgin, not from a Greek one. His stepfather, His half-brothers and half-sisters, in fact all His people, were all Hebrews. Furthermore, this dictionary then traces the substitute name back to the Latin Iesus, and the Greek Iesous. It then traces the origin of the name Iesous back as being possibly adapted from the Greek healing goddess Ieso (Iaso). To the uniformed I would like to point out that Iaso is the usual Greek form, while Ieso is from the Ionic dialect of the Greeks. This startling discovery, the connection between Ieso (Iaso) and Iesous, is also revealed to us by the large unabridged edition of Liddell and Scott, Greek-English Lexicon, p. 816, under “Iaso”.

    The third witness comes to us in a very scholarly article by Hans Lamer in Philologische Wochenschrift, No. 25, 21 June 1930, pp. 763- 765. In this article the author recalls the fact of Ieso being the Ionic Greek goddess of healing. Hans Lamer then postulates, because of all the evidence, that “they changed Ieso into a regular masculine Iesous. This was even more welcome to the Greeks who converted to Christianity.” He then continues, “If the above is true, then the name of our “Lord” which we commonly use goes back to a long lost form of the name of a Greek goddess of healing. But to Greeks who venerated a healing goddess Ieso, a saviour Iesous must have been most acceptable. The Hellenisation was thus rather clever.” This then is the evidence of three sourced who, like us, do not hide the fact of the Greek name Iesous being related to the Greek goddess of healing. The Hellenisation of Yahusha’s Name was indeed most cleverly done. .. please continue ..

    http://www.yahuah-yahusha.info/uploads/5/8/3/6/5836053/origin_jesus.pdf

  21. The Synagogue Beneath The Western Wall
    https://hiddeninthecrag.com/2017/12/21/the-synagogue-beneath-the-western-wall/

  22. Rev & adirondack:

    I didn’t know what YHW really promised to Abraham…seems like the draft for Kalergi’s plan…:

    ““For My part, this is My covenant with you: you will become the father of many nations. And you are no longer to be called Abram; your name is to be Abraham, for I am making you father of many nations, and your issue will be kings. ”
    Genesis 17: 4-8
    http://www.snydertalk.com/2016/05/26/26-2016-snydertalk-yahwehs-covenants-promises/

    • Kalergi’s plan does not know the gospel. Abraham knew the gospel.

      • …Abraham was a jew, wasn’t he?…

        • was Abraham a muslim? .. was he a christian? .. did he work for cnn?

          Abraham Wasn’t A Jew

          The term Shemite is derived from Noah’s son Shem.

          The term Hebrew is derived from Shem’s descendant Eber. Eber was a Shemite, and the first Hebrew, but not an Israelite or a Jew because neither existed yet.

          Abraham was Eber’s descendant. Abraham was a Shemite and a Hebrew, but not an Israelite or a Jew because neither existed yet.

          Isaac was Abraham’s son. Isaac was a Shemite and a Hebrew, but not an Israelite or a Jew because neither existed yet.

          Jacob, who God renamed Israel, was Isaac’s son. Jacob was a Shemite and a Hebrew, but not a Jew because Jews originated with his son Judah. The first Israelites were the children of Jacob.

          Judah was one of Jacob’s twelve sons (see Children of Jacob and The Tribes Of Israel). Judah was a Shemite, a Hebrew, and an Israelite. The first Jews were the children of Judah. The descendants of the other eleven of Jacob’s sons were not Jews, but were themselves named accordingly e.g. from Levi came the Levites, from Benjamin came the Benjamites and so on.

          http://www.keyway.ca/htm2003/20030302.htm

          • correct, Rev, thanks for clarifying the terms:
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew_%28word%29

            I should have said “hebrew” (in fact, in the slav languages that’s the only term used to denominate jews).

            …so, Abraham was a hebrew, wasn’t he?…

            sometime we just lose the historic perspective: some 2500 years ago the hebrews and their influence were practically inexistent over the peoples of the world…while today that covenant of YHW he made with Abraham has become reality: he “is the father of many nations, and his issues are kings”.

            All 3 todays major religions are “religions of the book”. Moses (Thorah), Jesus (NT) and Muhammad (Q’ran) are descendants of Abraham

            https://image.slidesharecdn.com/wheredoyoustand-120926081809-phpapp01/95/islam-2-728.jpg?cb=1348647808

            only some 2500 years ago (and what to say earlier!!) the panorama was totally different:

            + greco-roman panteon, + all the local religions in Europe, Africa & America + hinduism (vedaism) + religions in Asia….

            1500-2000 years are really such a short period of time compared to all the known (and unknown!!) human history.

            So, Abraham, from YHW’s chosen people really did become “father of many nations”.

            • “So, Abraham, from YHW’s chosen people really did become “father of many nations.”

              The way you are thinking about it Maria has no gospel. You have an emphasis on thinking biologically and not spiritually in how you are comparing Abraham and others like him. That is your way.

              On the other hand, the gospel understanding of our Lord Jesus Christ is: Abraham is a spiritual father. it is not anything to get caught up about. Abel was a spiritual father also. Rahab was a spiritual mother. Etc. What he knew, which was the gospel, others will hear and know. Abraham at the time, was the only possessor of the gospel message in the whole world, along with his wife and household. Just like Noah and his household. What Abraham’s household possessed, which was the gospel message, was written for posterity.

              The gospel is the message of The Christ that Abraham and all people like Him come to know. So from Abraham’s people others came to the Lord in a very real sense, because he possessed the gospel message and shared the message with others. His people are believers in Jesus Christ. As the Old Testament taught and the New Testament taught, believers have faith in Christ and so it is not by biological genealogy but only God gives faith to a people who hear and believe in God’s proclaimed message of salvation since the Fall.
              Believers are out of many nations. So as I said, Abraham knew the gospel, and the Kalergi’s plan has no gospel.

            • ‘So, Abraham, from YHW’s chosen people really did become “father of many nations” .. if you want to find the ‘chosen people’ .. look in the mirror

              Abraham’s Sons

              If we include Eliezer as a son (following the Septuagint and tradition), Abraham had nine sons by two wives and two concubines. The first of the sons born to Abraham was Joktan (Yaqtan), son of Keturah.

              He probably had a number of daughters also, but they are not mentioned in Genesis since only ruling sons are listed in the king lists.

              Here is a list of the sons born to Abraham by his two wives: Sarah and Keturah, and his two concubines: Hagar and Masek. Jacob, like his grandfather Abraham, also had two concubines: Bilhah (Rachel’s maidservant) and Zilpah (Leah’s maidservant).

              Sarah, daughter of Terah (Gen. 20:12)
              Yitzak (Issac)

              Hagar the Egyptian (Sarah’s handmaid)
              Yismael (Ishmael), who was Egyptian, since race/ethnicity was traced through the mother, as is true in Judaism today. This pattern is still recognized in Egypt, which is why the Egyptian government has made it illegal for Egyptian men to marry Jewish women.

              Barent Fabritius’ Hagar and Ishmael

              Keturah, daughter of Joktan (Gen. 25)
              Yisbak
              Joktan – Keturah’s firstborn son
              Midian
              Zimran
              Medan
              Shuah

              Masek (Keturah’s handmaid?)
              Eliezar of Damascus

              Confederations

              Reviewing this list we note a linguistic correspondence between three sons: Yitzak, Yismael and Yisbak. This triad of sons appears to represent a tribal unit. Other tribal units are Og, Gog and Magog and Uz, Buz and Huz.

              Some triads represent heads of clans that may not be in confederation. This seems to be the case with Jacob, Esau and Seir the Horite, although these blood relatives might have been a tribal confederation had Jacob not fled to Padan-Aram.

              When twin sons were born it was important to determine which breached first; thus the midwife’s use of the scarlet cord (Gen. 38:28). Some name pairs suggest twins, such as Perez and Zerah, Dishon and Dishan (Horites, according to Gen. 36:21), and Letush and Leum (Dedanites, according to Gen. 25:3). Dedan is where the oldest Arabic texts have been found.

              Who Out of Four Firstborn Sons Rules?

              Abraham actually had four firstborn sons: Yaqtan (Joktan), Yismael (Ishmael), Eliezer, and Yitzak (Isaac), probably born in that order. Joktan became the head of the Joktanite tribes of Arabia. Yismael became the father of the Sinai Bedouins. No sons are named for Eliezar. Yitzak fathered Yisreal (Jacob), and Esau the elder. Esau and Jacob were contemporaries of Seir the Horite. The initial Y in the names of these Horite rulers indicates divine appointment. It is the symbol of the long horns of the Nilo-Saharan cattle and represents a solar cradle whereby the individual is overshadowed.

              The firstborn sons ruled among Abraham’s people. However the first-born sons of wives were ranked above the firstborn sons of concubines. So Joktan ranked over Eliezar, and Yitzak ranked over Yishmael. Joktan would rule over the southern settlements of his maternal grandfather (Dedan, Ramaah and Beersheba) and Yitzak would rule the northern settlements of his father Abraham (Hebron, Bethel and Shechem).

              Two Kings and Two Kingdoms

              Abraham married according to the pattern of his Kushite royal ancestors. These kings had two wives. One was a half-sister (as was Sarah to Abraham) and the other was a patrilineal cousin or niece (as was Keturah to Abraham). Analysis of the Genesis genealogical data indicates that the firstborn son of the cousin/niece wife ascended to the throne of his maternal grandfather. This is indicated by the consistent pattern of the cousin bride naming her firstborn son after her father. So Lamech (Gen. 5), the firstborn of Methuselah, was named after his mother’s father, Lamech the Elder (Gen. 4). Joktan, the firstborn son of Keturah, was named after Keturah’s father Joktan. Esau, the husband of Oholibamah (Gen. 36), was named after his maternal grandfather Esau the Elder, the son of Isaac (Yitzak).

              The firstborn son of the half-sister wife ascended to the throne of his biological father. Isaac was Abraham’s proper heir and ruled after him. Genesis tells us that Abraham’s other sons were given their inheritance and sent away from the territory of Isaac. This is not entirely accurate. Other sons often served as viziers in the territories of their ruling brothers. Indeed, there is much evidence that the men listed in the Horite King lists either ruled over territories or served as high ranking persons in the territories of their siblings or maternal grandfathers. Those who did not, were sent away to establish kingdoms of their own. Most of the heroes of the Old Testament were sent-away sons: Cain, Nimrod, Abraham, Moses, and David are examples.

              This is the dynamic which drove the Kushite expansion out of the Nile Valley so that Kushite rulers controlled the great water systems of the ancient Afro-Asiatic Dominion. Raamah and Nimrod ruled separate territories that had once been united under their father Kush. Asshur and Arpachshad ruled separate territories that had once been united under their father Shem. Likewise, Peleg and Joktan ruled separate territories that had once been unified under their father Eber.

              Firstborn Sons of Concubines

              Had Sarah remained without a son, the rightful heir to Abraham’s throne would have been Eliezar (Gen. 15). The Masoretic and Greek texts do not agree on Eliezer. The Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) clearly states that he was a son of Abraham by Masek, but this is not found in the Masoretic text. This suggests a peculiar characteristic of this unique kinship pattern: the assignment of territories to the firstborn sons of concubines. If the pattern of Hagar and Masek is like the pattern of Bilhah and Zilpah, then Yismael and Eliezar received lands/settlements to govern and were included as tribal heads along with Joktan, Yitzak, Yisbak, Midian, Medan, Zimran and Shuah.

              Concerning Ishmael, his assignment of a settlement in or near Paran on the way to Egypt is indicated by these words: This is the genealogy of Ishmael, Abraham’s son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah’s maidservant, bore to Abraham. And these were the names of the sons of Ishmael: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth, then Kadar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadar, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael and these were their names, by their towns and settlements… (Genesis 25:12-16).

              So it appears that firstborn sons of wives ruled territories and firstborn sons of concubines ruled cities or settlements as regional rulers in obedience to their brother Kings. This is similar to the “nomes” of Egypt, each ruled separately by a tribal chieftain. This sheds light on the relationship between Jacob’s sons and can help us to understand the apportionment of land and settlements to their descendants.

              http://jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/2011/03/abrahams-sons.html

              • Rev & adirondack:
                “‘So, Abraham, from YHW’s chosen people really did become “father of many nations” .. if you want to find the ‘chosen people’ .. look in the mirror”
                I look in the mirror and could not see a person, even less a hebrew who would struggle for the reconstruction of the temple in Jerusalem.
                I look in the mirror and could not see somebody who gives any importance to the story the descendants of Abraham = the “chosen people” had been chased from Egypt (the Egyptians were a lower category then? YHW punished the whole people because of the rulings of the pharaoh…very spiritual, oh, yeah!)) and then what Moses had to say to those chosen people who was instructed by their god, YHW, to kill women and children.
                At least not greater importance than the one the teachings of Zoroaster or those of Buddha could have to me. maybe less, really. at least Zoroaster’s logo is “good thoughts, good words, good deeds”.

                Rev, you are right:
                the teachings of Jesus arose in the context of the hebrew religion, that’s why during the first century a.d. they were simply the basis of a sect within the jewish religion. Then, at the end of the 2nd century, to protect the judeo-christians from “accidents” like the one of the gospel of Marcion, 140 a.d., who cleaned up from every OT sign his codified version of the gospel which arose around the teachings of Jesus during the 1st century, the NT was codified. The NT (only 27 books, amongst which only 4 gospels from the more than 80 that was circling around at the time) was added to the OT until 150-60 a.d. The properly said christian theological doctrine was not definitely settled up until 10the century, while the Canon of the NT & the OT was officially proclamed only at the Concilium of Trento (1545-63).

                In view of all that: a. the inicial character of the christianity as a jewish sect and b. the building of the political institution “christian church” with its tool, the Cannon, a process that lasted centuries and dropped on the way many many gospels and ideas (those of the gnostics, for instance, Origin etc), I really cannot see where the spiritual God-made binding lies so that I should believe much beyond the universal teaching of Jesus for love that could save us all as souls.

                adirondack: “You have an emphasis on thinking biologically and not spiritually in how you are comparing Abraham and others like him. ”
                I try to think objectively.
                Why Jesus should be worth more than the spiritual leaders/founders of other religions? Mani, for instance, the founder of Maniqueism (3rd c. a.d.) also died as marthyr, but he did not dispose of a structure (like we can see the jewish family/religious unities act until today) nor preached a belligerent form of religion (like the one Mohamed founded).

                That is my opinion and approach. You are free and welcome to have yours. 🙂 God bless!

                • Objectively I still think you are emphasizing biology, and not spirituality in how you interpret Abraham. Are you not writing that Abraham is the father of the Jews biologically? If so, then that is not how to interpret who Abraham is the father of spiritually.

                  Abraham believed the gospel of The Christ, as do Christians today believe in The Christ. Abraham and Christians today believe in The Christ. People who believe in The Christ are not necessarily biologically related in close kinship. Gentiles and Jews both may believe in The Christ.

                  The understanding of the gospel is truly spiritual, because The Christ is revealed in what is called the gospel and the gospel is revealed from heaven, or the spiritual as opposed to earthy; in other words, the gospel is a message from God, not man. The gospel is revealed by the earthy in the full revelation of The Christ in Jesus who is God who united with the seed of Abraham (biological), but the gospel message of salvation in The Christ is based on faith and faith is given from God. So faith is spiritual. Faith comes from God. The Holy Spirit, who is God, He gives faith to people and He illuminates man to know the gospel is true, that The Christ is truly Jesus. So the gospel is spiritual by the Holy Spirit, who is God, illuminating the truth of His Word.

                  • “The understanding of the gospel is truly spiritual, because The Christ is revealed in what is called the gospel and the gospel is revealed from heaven”
                    question: why only 4 of the more than 80 gospels that circulated around during the 1st century a.d. made it to be part of the NT cannon of the church?
                    “Abraham believed the gospel of The Christ, as do Christians today believe in The Christ. ”
                    did Abraham know Christ? we know he knew YHW, but he did not know the God-man-that-died-on-the-cross.
                    “but the gospel message of salvation in The Christ is based on faith and faith is given from God.”
                    so do you say that a muslim/buddhist/whatsoever person who lives an immaculate live and pursues the light and truth, for the fact he does not venerate The Christ in the person of Jesus, could not expect to go closer to God and has not been given faith by God?

                    • – Why only the 4 and not 80? Because to know the gospel is to know the difference between the 4 and the other 80 or 30 or whatever.
                      – Abraham knew The Christ. To know who Christ is, is to know Abraham knew Him by reading the OT and NT in the specific acts and words of Abraham and others in Scripture, like Christ Himself, who explicitly spoke how Abraham knew Christ.
                      – Living an immaculate life and pursing the light and truth is not the way of salvation. All sin. Nobody is perfect. Christ is the way of salvation. The Eternal punishment taken in our place by The Christ who’s eternal value took the eternal punishment in the shedding of His blood on the cross, or the eternal punishment for sin eternally experienced because they do not believe in God’s way of salvation in Christ. Two ways of dealing with the eternal punishment: accept Christ took the eternal punishment due to His eternalness in Him being the God-man, or take the eternal punishment – eternally on ones own. Thus the gospel message of Christ since the Fall, as written in Scripture, promised and fully revealed in Jesus Christ in redemptive history about 2000 years ago, and proclaimed and preached from the Fall to our time today in churches. Churches possess the gospel. A church that does not possess the gospel is not a church, but a trap.

                • maria, “Why Jesus should be worth more than the spiritual leaders/founders of other religions? Mani, for instance, the founder of Maniqueism (3rd c. a.d.) also died as marthyr, but he did not dispose of a structure (like we can see the jewish family/religious unities act until today) nor preached a belligerent form of religion (like the one Mohamed founded).”

                  That is the crux of the whole shabang! hahaha! 🙂

                  Why is Jesus worth more? Not only did Mani die as a martyr, but there were many others who died to the Roman cross during the time of Jesus. There were two others close enough to Jesus that they spoke while each were on the cross. Jesus is worth more, because Mani is just a man. Mani was a sinner. He was a man who was not perfect. Aside from needing to be a perfect man who never – never – did anything wrong, but also, The Christ had to be God. Jesus is the one and only unique God-man. God united to the seed of David in Mary. The Person Jesus is God and man. Mani and no others were and no others will be God. Only Jesus was God Himself uniting to a human nature for a purpose that was acceptable to Himself.

                  When Jesus died on the cross His worth was infinite, because God is infinite, “Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created (Revelation 4:11).”

                  The gravity (weightiness) of sin must be understood from all of what God had to do in order to save man. Sin transgresses God. No man is perfect; all men do wrong. Sin transgresses God – think about who God is. He is Eternal. Sin transgresses that who is Eternal. Any one little tiny wrong goes against God eternally, for God is Eternal. The tiny bit of sin forever transgresses God because God is forever. Without an understanding of justice in your understanding maria, then it will be a challenge to understand the love of God. God is spit at by man. God is treated harshly and with hate by man. Man’s sin is a spit at God. Man’s sin is against the Holy God who loves with an everlasting kindness and man takes that love of God and sh-ts on it (to put it bluntly). Yet God in His love decided to redeem and save man even though man continually acts against God in the smallest and biggest ways man can – man is not perfect!

                  So here it is. Sin eternally goes against God because God is eternal and sin goes against Him. How is sin punished? How does something that eternally does wrong get punished? Man can never punish sin, or illegal acts of crime even, forever. The judge will be gone in a short time, maybe 100 years old, but short. Man is finite. He can not pay off, or serve the time of doing a wrong act eternally while on earth in his current lifetime. So how is an eternal act against God punished? Eternally punished.

                  How does Jesus being not only a man but thankfully – oh wonderful and worthy of all our praise – God also matter? Why does it matter? Because any man can die, even by martyrdom, but Jesus, when He died, His sacrifice was accepted by Himself not only in the blood of Him being a man, but His infinite existence in Being God Himself took the punishment on the cross. So sin infinitely goes against God, because God is infinite. So God Himself made a plan to pay the infinite debt of punishment that man had accumulated in his sin. That plan was God Himself, being infinite, could take and pay off an infinite punishment, and He did by being the Person Jesus. His blood made satisfaction in accord with God’s holy and righteous judgment, and His infinite existence in being God made satisfaction in accord with His holy and righteous judgement. Eternal punishment was given in the Eternal Being of God Himself on the cross in the Person of Jesus of Nazareth. God in His plan imputed, or in other words, accepted Jesus’ death in our place. He died and took the eternal punishment instead of us having to. But some do not believe the gospel. Some do not believe that Jesus was the God-man, that Jesus is the only way to be saved. And so, instead of accepting Jesus’ death to be a satisfaction to the eternal punishment that our sin deserves, because sin eternally is against God because God is Eternal, then those people who do not believe have to take the eternal punishment their self, which is called hell or the lake of fire, etc.

                  There is an eternal punishment. The weightiness of sin is infinite. God therefore had a plan. Jesus died in our place and took the eternal punishment in the eternity of His Being (for He is God), and therefore believers have the gift of eternal life. Yet unbelievers not believing Jesus Christ took their eternal punishment, therefore take their own eternal punishment.

                  It is who and what Jesus Christ accomplished that makes the infinite worthy difference between Him and other mere men like Mani, Buddha, the guru down the street, etc.

              • thanks, Rev. very interesting. really!

                but I still keep asking: why we, who inhabit nowadays and come from all the parts of the world, with every kind of DNA whatsoever! should be so focused on the family history of a tiny tribe which some 3000 years ago lived in the Middle East? is it worth so very much? much more than any other tiny tribe, or bigger one, that lived in any other part of the planet some 3000 years ago or earlier?
                is not this, at the end, the exhibition, the result of, in some way, the “law of the jungle”: succeeds the one who has more abilities (strength, artfulness, organisation), and not necessary the most noble one?
                (….and here the last image of this week’s seek´s Image post comes to my mind…)

                • Maria an incredible truth has been revealed to you ..

                  to know where you are going .. you need to know where you came from .. not all who claim to be ‘chosen’ are .. Abraham’s seed has filled the earth and those who believe are chosen ..

                  And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they *sang a new song, saying,
                  “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
                  10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” Rev 5

                  • as DNA I am not Abraham’s seed. like 90%&more of all christians….

                    am I permitted to believe the teachings of Jesus as the path towards God without honouring the OT, YHW and its chosen people? question.

                    as for the 4 beasts and the number 7…it’s a long lasting tradition coming from unmemorable years/eras before Christ.

                    • no worries Maria .. no DNA required .. you are chosen because He choose you .. He knew you before you were in your mother’s womb and He created you in His own image .. the only requirement is to seek for Him and search for Him with all your heart and He will reveal Himself to you .. it is your destiny

                    • I’m sure that’s the case. (with every soul sincerely searching the truth & the light).
                      But why should I (s.o.) focus on the history of the descendants of Abraham (the hebrews, and not the greeks, for instance, or the ancient mongols or indian tribes or whatsoever) to know Him well and so, go on the path that leads to Him?
                      If He is Universal (of which I have no doubt) He should not have favourite sons, I reckon.

                    • I guess you know where you are going Maria and your ‘Jesus’ is a liar ..
                      Thomas *said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

                    • ‘am I permitted to believe the teachings of Jesus as the path towards God’ ..

                      Now I understand you Maria .. you don’t really believe the teachings of Jesus .. you believe He is only one of many ways to the Father .. in this you are deceived .. He said, He alone is the way, just as Peter said, ‘there is only one name under heaven by which all men may be saved .. therefore that which you believe is a lie and the light in you is darkness

                    • 🙂 you haven’t commented on the second part of the question, for which I asked it: can I accept that Jesus is “the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me” WITHOUT venerating Abraham and all his descendants of the hebrew tribe?

                    • “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

                    • …:) I see. Pythagoras or whoever person (virtuous & pious) from an era before year 1 a.d. could not come to the Father Creator, since he could not do it through Jesus Christ. The clause for exceptionalism & chosenness we so very much criticise in other cases…

                    • For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. 1 Peter 4

                • thanks, Rev.
                  at the ende of the thread, my comments.

  23. http://www.bostonherald.com/news/international/2018/01/cardinal_sean_omalley_rebukes_pope_over_chile_slander_comments_on_abuse

  24. about Kalergi’s plan & all…

    https://mikeyy.org/2018/01/18/jews-neither-race-nor-religion-but-cult/

  25. thanks, Rev.

    the Christianity as we know it today is the “reading”, the interpretation St. Paul did to Jesus’ teachings, life&death. St. Paul was a jew who was inspired by the idea that also the gentiles could aspire to be saved if only they follow the Messiah. that was the sect of the judeo-christians of the 1st c. a.d., some 8-10.000 followers of that time. that’s why the OT in the basis of the christian religion as we know it.

    the other two ” readings” of Jesus’s legacy were punished by the history: a. that of the hebrews who knew their jewish Messiah of the Thorah came in the person of Jesus was swept away in 70 a.d., the destruction of the temple & emperor Adrian , and b. that of the gnostics, for too esoteric, and so universal,

    (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Piñero
    http://www.antoniopinero.com/libros.html)

    …not in need of genealogy (that of the OT inclusive) but of freedom and individual spiritual mature growing without mediators toward God:

    “Gnostic Christianity taught that the path to liberation lay in the attainment of Gnosis, the knowledge of sacred truths of the spiritual universe. They said that each human being is the inheritor of a divine spark, a bit of fire given by the hand of God. Most men do not realize this fire within and live in ignorance of their true nature, but Jesus’ life had as its mission the purpose of reminding humanity of its true nature. He demonstrated, through his life and death, the way to freedom and taught the secrets of the ascent….”

    “…When the latter more mainstream groups began to be organized around orthodox leaders demanding strict adherence to the newly forming church rules, the Gnostics fell into disrepute. Because they had always voiced the absolute necessity of individual freedom in finding salvation and because they refused to bow to any authority other than their own, they began to be viewed as renegades, a danger to the growing power base of Constantine’s church. Consequently, they were disdained and persecuted, not so much by forces outside the Christian community, but by the very community to which they had once belonged.”
    http://www.essene.com/Gospels/GnosticAndSophia.html

    —-
    was not Jesus an essene?
    “JESUS AN ESSENE.”
    “The words Therapeuts and Essenes are convertible terms, and refer primarily to the art of healing which these devotees professed,”
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/jae/jae03.htm

    —-
    were not the essenes themselves inspired by the gnostic ideas?

    “The Essenes were a Jewish religious brotherhood, one of three main philosophical Jewish sects of the time, the other two being the Pharisees and the Sadducees. The Essenes are striking in the absence of their mention from the Bible for they were as influential and as important as the Sadducees and the Pharisees. They repudiated conventional Judaism in favor of a form of Gnosticism, and were the most esteemed healers in the Holy Land at the time. The word Essene comes from the Greek ‘essenoi’ meaning something secret or mystic.”

    “The Essene order existed in Palestine and Syria from the 2nd century BC to the 2nd century AD. Its chief settlements were on the shores of the Dead Sea. The Essenes are censored out from the Bible and also they are not mentioned in rabbinical literature! credit. The Essenes did not worship in Herod’s Jerusalem temple, considering it to be a defiled place run by political slaves of the Herods…and where is the place of God’s devotee? to the Essenes, the answer was obvious…in the wilderness, under a clear sky and with nature.

    Their fundamental teachings were love of God, love of virtue, and love of one’s fellow humans. And does that ring a bell what Christ was preaching about?

    Modern scholars thus believe that Jesus may have been an Essene and with whom he shared many views”

    http://www.techofheart.co/2007/11/was-jesus-raised-and-trained-as.html

    —–

    …the Puline christianity (PC) takes its inspiration & legitimation from the jewish scriptures (the OT)…the Gnostic christianity (GC) “reads” Jesus’s teachings in the romano-helenist-persian-etc. esoteric traditions. The Pauline christianity (PC) was much easier to “in-take” than the Gnostic one. But most of all, the Pauline christianity created a church structure of power and jerarchy, while the Gnostic one preached that no terrestrial intermediators were needed for the man could reach God. That’s not to wonder, so, that from the 4th century on the PC became the official religion of the roman empire, while the GC with all of its variations during the centuries to come became persecuted & declared, time and again, heresy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Gnostic_sects
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esoteric_Christianity

    • Powerful post maria, thanks.

      • thanks. I only want to know what REALLY happened, not the partisan version of one or the other. if they distort reality now…imagine the easiness to do it 1-2000 years ago…
        I’m curious to study 4th century a.d….and what really led to the Edict of Thessalonica, 380 a.d….
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Thessalonica

        • The Edict of Thessalonica, very interesting. I’d like to delve into that myself.
          I think there’s truth in all organized religion, and a lot of propaganda as well. If there wasn’t an agenda behind the Nicene Council and the church really wanted people to know the truth, none of the books would have been removed or left out of scripture nor would the historical writings have been hidden from the people. Constantine was nothing more than a political figure, the first ‘pope’ whose mother Helena was said to be a pagan, yet that seems to have been ‘changed’ too. It’s claimed by some that she told Constantine they must declare Christianity as the ruling religion of the land so as to protect their reign over the people, yet in the link below, they claim Constantine convinced Helena to claim Christianity as the religion of the land. Just as it’s not proven or even mentioned in early history, yet Helena was GIVEN CREDIT for finding the ‘true cross’ of the crucifixion of Christ.

          Today, most people rely on the clergy to TELL them what the scriptures mean, while rarely taking the time to actually research any of the history, and it’s the historical records, which in my opinion, have been changed to create a false narrative of a chosen group of people who are not what they claim to be. Who knows when revised history began, but I’ve thought it probably started with the false flag event of the burning of the Alexandria library. My guess is everything was removed to the vatican archives before the fire broke out. Today, it’s so much easier to change history, it’s just a click away. I’ve searched for the truth in organized religion for years and years and have come to the conclusion, that like science, organized religions are theoretical. They are what that group wants you to believe. I don’t buy for a minute all the new archaeological finds of new information or long lost scrolls because I’m sure all that was to be found was dug up and sold or stolen years ago. The funny thing about the bible if you are genuinely searching for truth, is how we’re actually able to disprove the most important things that ‘they’ want us to believe to be true.

          This is a 2001 article about the Bible.
          The Bible Unearthed
          Archaeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts
          By ISRAEL FINKELSTEIN and NEIL ASHER SILBERMAN
          http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/f/finkelstein-bible.html

          https://www.thoughtco.com/helena-mother-of-constantine-3530253

          Truth is, we don’t really know what it true, we only know what we’ve been told is the truth.

          • “Truth is, we don’t really know what it true, we only know what we’ve been told is the truth.”

            I find that to be a very sad conclusion of your understanding. No faith and no hope. I find it to be very despairing. There is hope: Christ is the way, truth, and life. Of course, I was told that and I only believe because of His Word’s instruction and His Spirit testifying to me the Truth of Christ. I do hold no doubts; I do really know what is true – Christ.

            • I don’t have ‘no hope in Christ’, I have no trust in men adirondack. Christ is our only hope. I don’t know how you came to that conclusion.

              I’m not looking for religion, I’m looking for the spiritual guidance I need to be a good person while I’m here and trying to make sure I am not following false dogma. Yep, sometimes I trip up. I admit to having so much bitterness and anger within me BECAUSE of the things I see happening in this world today, and according to ‘religion’, I am sinning against God because hard as I try, I can’t help but feel that way, nor can I stand seeing the suffering of people KNOWING who is doing it. So I try to work on that every day. I try to replace it with the hope that this will not last forever and I try to take a break sometimes from searching for the ‘answers’ but I KNOW the answer already…

              I know who has authority over the earth and what methods he uses to keep it as miserable as possible for so many others. I know how men become arrogant and egotistical and judgemental because they are lifted into positions of power. I see how many people beLIEve their little pieces of paper from the wizards convince them they are smarter than the rest, yet so many of them are soulless and condescending and selfish. They think the rest of us are here to serve them and to believe what we are told to believe. I see the evil things that take place in healthcare for money. I see those who think so highly of themselves, are the ones who pretend to be men of faith, yet they don’t serve the same Creator that I strive to. I also see that everything in this world is so obviously corrupt, and cold and heartless and it needn’t be that way at all.

              I also see so many people who also have their eyes open, and many are trying to step back and wipe away the veil. I see ‘jews’ who are not JEWS but a mob of greedy individuals who have sold their souls for power, throwing their own under the bus again in order to gain control over the world. History will repeat itself again, and many will be ‘sacrificed’ just as they were during the last world war. I see the destruction of everything that was moral and good in our society being turned upside down by design, and I see a man in a costume claiming to be the representative of God on earth leading the pack down the far and wide road to destruction.

              These papal games of thrones are evil. Christ didn’t make his teachings very complicated, but the priesthood certainly likes to make things chaotic and complicated, and it’s always about serving THEIR interests and money and wars. The world has been at war for a long, long time and the lies began in the beginning when another adversary to mankind also wanted to be ‘God’.

              I’ve watched a very humble pastor in my own family, who loved the Lord more than anything, served in many missionaries get involved with those who are paid more than him, call themselves ‘elders’ and who ‘educate’ him through their seminars, include them on pilgrimages to the holy lands, convince him most everything he thought was true, is not. Their theories are not scripturally sound, but instead are part of the deception that abounds in many churches today.

              He has jumped on the liberal ‘white privilege’ bandwagon, blaming the white people in his church for being white and the cause of all the evil in the world, thinks war, the killing of innocents is ordained by God for the common good, believes men who own their own businesses are better men than those who are mere workers for others. This once godly man has been ‘charmed’ by his own ego when he was given a position to sit on the board in a University in Michigan. Over the years, by the advice and council of the ‘elders’ he no longer preached TO the flock, but talks down to them. He is totally unaware of his new arrogant behavior towards others, that he could possibly be wrong, yet accuses others in a ‘pastorally’ condescending manner of being close minded because their thinking is not the same as his. Men are not perfect, and all of us will fall down in our imperfection, but just because we don’t follow the whims of men, does NOT make us unfaithful, albeit, it might make us less sheeplike.

              There is nothing new under the sun. History has been changed just by example of the Rothschild family who conquer a country, and then rename it. No one seems to agree on much of anything of real importance within the Abrahamic religions, yet there are many things they hold in common within each, just suited to fit the agenda set forth by the rulers of their areas, in cahoots with the priesthoods.

              In my journey of faith, I find interest in many writings, but look within for quiet discernment before taking anything ‘new’ as fact simply because someone told me to beLIEve them. I don’t understand how one can have a personal relationship with God when you allow your only guide to be what other men have told you is fact, yet changes throughout the times. That is, in my humble opinion, blind faith.

              I’m sick and tired of watching Peter steal from the people to give it to Saul. These men keep us in a continuous state of genesis. They destroy in order to rebuild, in order to continue to rule over the rest of us, over and over again.

              I try to live simple. I try to be there for whoever is in need, to be respectful of others, to be patient and caring, regardless of who they are or what color their skin is, or what religion they practice except for those who are deliberately using religion and God to enrich themselves and enslave our minds. I have NO tolerance for them at all, instead I will continue to expose their lies because their actions speak louder than their fake words. There is so much hypocrisy and judgement of others in churches today that shows me these people are not following the way of Christ – to love another, they are demanding that others follow THEM.

              There are men who are pastors and ministers who teach by example what the church of Christ was meant to be, and yet I have seen the same church where a pastor was always there for the community, keeping clothes, food, money for the people in need and uncondeming spiritual guidance and understanding, and teaching by example, and not lectures, what it meant to be one of the faithful in Christ. Going out of his way to be there to comfort them, coming to their homes late at night when he knew there was an illness or death in a family, or a father who was out of work, to be of service to them in whatever they needed and to encourage the church to do whatever they could as well. It was not expected of him to provide anything from his own pocket, or time or energy, yet he is truly a man walking the path of Jesus and does so all the time.

              I have also seen the new pastor take over that same church who has eliminated all of that. He has stopped the bible programs the kids loved so much, stopped stocking food donations or clothes or other necessities that were alway kept just in case someone in the congregation was in need, because he didn’t have the time or desire or want to waste money that could be sent to the hierarchy of the synod instead, thereby in my opinion, becoming more of a non profit foundation instead of a church for the faithful in that community. Not a sheppard of his flock, but an overseer of the plantation.

              So, back to history and what is true. If they feel comfortable enough today to change the basic dogma of their religions, as is the case of the Roman Catholic Church, AND many Protestant churches, and twist the interpretation of the word, they most certainly must have been doing it all along, as Constantine did. His reason for declaring Christianity over the land was political and self serving, an act of power, not an act of faith.

              The Catholic church is a mumbo jumbo of all sorts of ‘religions’ and mysticism and paganism from ancient days, including the Jews who are not Jews running their independent Vatican financial arm. These are the moneychangers. Yet, no church has more influence over others than the Roman Catholic Universal Church, where in cahoots with the rabbis and Imams and kings of the world, almost all leaders of all nations go to kiss the ring of the pope, the self proclaimed replacement for GOD on earth. Why? Are they showing their allegiance to him? Do they get their orders for their next missions of destruction from him?

              Religion has become nothing but divisive. Faith and Love in our communities has been hijacked and replaced by corruption, fraud, theft, shame, judgement and warring Crusaders who want us all to believe, they are the ones looking out the common good of the world, while blaming us for all the evil in their FAKE world they’ve created.

              Our world is being led into a Universal, one size fits all religion of their ‘beast system’ today. My faith does not depend on what they tell me, because God doesn’t live in buildings, or organizations, he lives in the hearts of men. He’s either ruling your temple or something else is.
              ( I’m sure many Jehovah Witnesses will totally take offense to that statement, as they believe the hearts of men are where all evil and sin live)

              So I don’t apologize for not conforming to the whims of mere men in high places. I don’t need them or their organizations for my salvation, nor my hope, because they’ve shown me, most of them don’t seem to need the Creator either, they just want to be Him.

              • I had said what I said because you said we do not know the truth. Quoting you, ““Truth is, we don’t really know what it true, we only know what we’ve been told is the truth.” In my imperfect manner, I was trying to encourage you that we do know the truth. He is Christ Jesus.

                I felt what you wrote intriguedbyr. Thanks!

                • I see. I was actually talking about the revision of history over time. Thanks adirondack.

                  • History is revised by corruption, but true history is not revised. God is not man. In spite of man, God is never tainted by the sin and evils of man and the wicked world. God does not sin and has no corruption. God works in history by His incorruptible and perfect Word for He is Holy and Perfect. God works in history conquering the wicked hearts of man, and turning some people out of their wicked ways into a life that trusts and worships God and all of His ways. God is Mighty and Holy and being what a God, the only true and living God, only can Be, His holy ways intruding into history are never corrupted and thwarted. Who He is and what He had accomplished in history in Him Being the Truth, therefore subjects history itself to His perfection and truth in the fullness of Jesus Christ as He delivers believers out of wickedness into a new life. God is never corrupted or revised, and His true history continues unabated in the fullness of Jesus Christ. God being incorruptible, and therefore without sin, in His Being the Person of Jesus is the fullness of true history unrevised. The truth is known, even the true history unrevised in The Christ.

              • thanks for those comments int..

              • Thanks Int for your sincerity and vulnerability .. you are a wounded warrior and a true hero .. stand firm in your faith

              • + 1.000.000!!

                THE POST OF THE YEAR, intrigued, thanks!!!!

              • ” No one seems to agree on much of anything of real importance within the Abrahamic religions, yet there are many things they hold in common within each, just suited to fit the agenda set forth by the rulers of their areas, in cahoots with the priesthoods.”

                it’s curious how the last 2000 years have been under the sign of the 3 abrahamic religions worldwide (except for Asia), trowing to the garbage all previously existing systems of faith (not necessarily pagan&politeistic).
                …sometimes it resembles to me the construct of the cartel of the controlled opposition & the ruling party we see applied everywhere today in order to keep “the system” operative…as if there never has been nothing before & beyond the abrahamic religions (the OT on the basis, of course)…
                I’m convinced we, the people, are granted by Him/the eternal Creator with His seed of “sparkle of God”, but for some reason somebody doesn’t want us to make it blossom…

                …it’s curious what the gnostics say about the creation of Adam:
                when the Demiurg created him, he was like a reptile, he didn’t have a soul…so Sophia, a manifestation of the Eternal Creator told the Demiurg to puff on Adam; he did so and Adam received the soul / the sparkle of God…the Demiurg had been previously gifted by the Eternal Creator! and so, he, the Demiurg, ended up without a soul himself!

          • totally agree. thanks for that post, intrigued!

            I’m more than curious what we could see on the shelves of the Rthshcld’s & Rockeffl’s libraries…

          • The first attempt to limit the books available to the believers happened at the council of Nicea in 325 AD. This council created 60 rules or canons. The 60th canon concluded that the books of the Old Testament which were approved to be read were 1, Genesis of the world; 2, The Exodus from Egypt; 3, Leviticus; 4, Numbers; 5, Deuteronomy; 6, Joshua, the son of Nun; 7, Judges, 8, Ruth; 9, Esther; 10, Of the Kings, First and Second; 11, Of the Kings, Third and Fourth; 12, Chronicles, First and Second; 13, Esdras, First and Second; 14, The Book of Psalms; 15, The Proverbs of Solomon; 16, Ecclesiastes; 17, The Song of Songs; 18, Job; 19,
            The Twelve Prophets; 20, Isaiah; 21, Jeremiah, 22, Baruk, 23, Lamentations, and the Epistle; 24, Ezekiel; 25, Daniel. 42 books are individually counted and this list includes Baruk and the Epistle of Jeremiah. The council then concluded that the books of the Brit Chadashah (New Testament) which were approved to be read were the Four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; The Acts of the Apostles; Seven Catholic Epistles, to wit, one of James, two of Peter, three of John, one of Jude; Fourteen Epistles of Paul, one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Galatians, one to the Ephesians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Hebrews, two to Timothy, one to Titus, and one to Philemon. 26 books were counted, and the Book of Revelation was excluded.

            This first attempt at the canonized version of Scripture included 68 books, not 66.

            Both the council of Nicea and the council of Laodikeia adopted the existing Tanakh (Torah, Nevi’iym, Ketuviym) as the total text of the Old Testament in their rule, although the order was obscured. Around AD 100, Jewish rabbis met at the Council of Jamniah and decided to include only 39 books in the Jewish canon, because they were the only texts that could be found in the original Ivriyt (Hebrew). Recall that three centuries earlier, 70 rabbis translated 46 books from Ivriyt to Greek.

            The delineation of sacred Scripture by rule or canon began to emerge in the late 4th Century and early 5th Century with the work of St. Jerome, aka Eusebius. Jerome sought to limit the books of the Old Testament to the 39 books of the Tanakh. He was overruled, however, by Pope Damasus, who wanted all 46 traditionally-accepted books included in the Old Testament, so the Latin Vulgate Old Testament was finalized with 46 books. The exact list of the books of the New Testament in the number and order in which they are traditionally delivered, was set forth by Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in a letter of AD 367, and Pope Damasus later ratified the same list.

            In AD 1536, Martin Luther translated the Bible from Ivriyt (Hebrew) and Greek to German. He limited the Old Testament to only 39 books, put the extra books in an appendix he called the Apocrypha. He also removed the books of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation from the New Testament order, declaring them to be less than canonical. In AD 1546, the Catholic Council of Trent reaffirmed the canonicity of all 46 books originally found in the Septuagint, and reaffirmed the full list of 27 books of the New Testament as traditionally accepted. This canon is the last official canon of the church. The original King James Bible carried a 39 book Old Testament, 15 book Apocrypha and a 27 book New Testament. The publication of only 66 books actually became an editor’s option, when publishers learned they could sell as many Bibles with only 66 books as they could with a Bible that included an Apocrypha.

            For many reasons, this method of inclusion, and by default, exclusion, has relegated significant books to the dust bin. For instance, the justification for the elimination of the Makkabiym is not set forth in the decision of the councils. The argument that the Makkabiym are merely historical ignores the extent that these writings answer many of the obscure prophecies found in Daniye’l 11. The Canon of Trent excluded Makkabiym Sheliyshiy (3 Maccabees) and Makkabiym Reviy’iy (4 Maccabees), Baruk Sheniy (2 Baruk), and Ezra Sheliyshiy and Reviy`iy (3 and 4 Ezra), Chanok (Enoch), and Yovheliym (Jubilees), were excluded from the Vulgate, and therefore excluded from all Protestant Bibles. These books appear as deuterocanonical works in various parts of the Christian world, however. For instance, both the Cepher Chanok (Enoch) and the Cepher Yovheliym (Jubilees) appear in the Abyssinian sect as deuterocanonical works.

            While some historians have rejected Chanok (Enoch) as heresy, Kepha Sheniy (2 Peter) 2:4-5 indicates that one of the believers in Chanok (Enoch) was Kepha himself, for he states “. . . ELOHIYM spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to She’ol, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noach the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the wicked; . . .” The delivery into chains of darkness and the reservation unto judgment is discussed only in the Cepher Chanok (Enoch).

            The decision to include both of these books was made easier when Paleo-Ivriyt (ancient Hebrew) versions of Chanok (Enoch) and Yovheliym (Jubilees) were found in Cave 4 at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls). In fact, the credibility of these two books, given the find, is much greater than the writings of the Brit Chadashah (New Testament), where not a single original exists.

            The Cepher Chanok (Enoch) was clearly known to early Christian writers as the following quote from Chanok 2:1 indicates: In the seventh (generation) from Adam, Chanok also prophesied these things, saying: “Behold, YAHUAH comes with ten thousands of his qodeshiym, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are wicked among them of all their wicked deeds which they have wickedly committed, and of all their hard speeches which wicked sinners have spoken against him.” Yahudah (Jude) 14-15

            The Chanokian writings, in addition to many other writings that were excluded from the Bible (such as the Cepher Toviyahu (Tobit), Ezra, Baruk, and other books included herein) were widely recognized by many of the early church fathers as “apocryphal” writings. The term “apocrypha” is derived from the Greek word meaning “hidden” or “secret.”

            Originally, the meaning of the term may have been complimentary in that the term was applied to sacred books whose contents were too exalted to be made available to the general public.

            http://www.cepher.net/Userfiles/Docs/Preface-2nd-Edition,-rev-1.pdf

          • Not only have books been hidden or kept secret but even those which have been passed down to us as ‘sacred scripture’ with the warning ‘not to add or remove’ .. evidence shows they have been tampered with .. consider the difference between the KJV translated from the Masoretic .. translated from the older Septuagint concerning inheritance of land ..

            Septuagint Genesis 15
            And Abram said, Master and Lord, what wilt thou give me? whereas I am departing without a child, but the son of Masek my home-born female slave, this Eliezer of Damascus is mine heir. 3 And Abram said, I am grieved since thou hast given me no seed, but my home-born servant shall succeed me.

            KJV Genesis 15
            And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? 3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
            Firstborn Sons of Concubines

            Had Sarah remained without a son, the rightful heir to Abraham’s throne would have been Eliezar (Gen. 15). The Masoretic and Greek texts do not agree on Eliezer. The Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) clearly states that he was a son of Abraham by Masek, but this is not found in the Masoretic text.
            This suggests a peculiar characteristic of this unique kinship pattern: the assignment of territories to the firstborn sons of concubines. If the pattern of Hagar and Masek is like the pattern of Bilhah and Zilpah, then Yismael and Eliezar received lands/settlements to govern and were included as tribal heads along with Joktan, Yitzak, Yisbak, Midian, Medan, Zimran and Shuah.
            http://jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/2011/03/abrahams-sons.html

            The Social Structure of the Biblical Hebrew

            Women could petition to inherit property

            Zelophehad’s five daughters were Mahlah, Noa, Hoglah, Milcah, and Tirzah. According to Numbers 27 they inherited property after petitioning Moses to render a judgement on this dispute. The dispute is connected to Moses’s half-brother Korah who challenged Moses’s authority, and pertains to a land holding of Manasseh. In the Book of Chronicles, Zelophehad (Tzelofhad) is listed as a son of Manasseh whose land holdings were in Egypt.

            Zelophehad’s daughters argued that the name of their deceased father would be lost among his people were they not to inherit. However, Zelophehad’s name would be perpetuated through one of his daughters. Were she to marry a patrilineal cousin, she would name her first born son Zelophehad, after her father, according to the cousin-bride’s naming prerogative. Sons did not perpetuate the father’s name among the biblical Hebrew.

            Moses granted the five daughters’ petition to inherit their father’s holding, and we read this law: “If a man dies without a son, then the inheritance shall pass to his daughter.” (Num 27:8)

            This account comes from the Deuteronomist, a source dating to the later Neo-Babylonian period (c.700-300 BC). The purpose is to explain the assignment of tribal holdings in the Promised Land. However, as this story comes before the entrance of the Israelites into the Promised Land, where was Zelophehad’s holding? The clan of Manasseh had deep roots in Egypt. It is possible that Zelophehad’s holding was in Egypt, but this does not serve the Deuteronomist’s narrative. He would have us believe that all the Hebrew people left Egypt, never to return there.

            According to Shammai Feldman’s “Biblical motives and sources” in “Journal of Near Eastern Studies” 22 (1962), this narrative is a fiction created to illustrate laws of inheritance. To express this another way: “This section of the chapter is a good example of a law embedded in a narrative, or a narrative created for the sake of a law.” (The Schocken Bible, p. 796)
            http://jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/2017/10/the-social-structure-of-biblical-hebrew_9.html

            KJV – Reliable Hebrew Text
            The Hebrew text underlying the KJV is reliable and does not have any demonstrable error. By God’s grace and providence there are not as many variant readings among the Hebrew Old Testament manuscripts as there are among the Greek New Testament manuscripts. Most of the variants concern pronunciations which do not affect translation. The KJV is based on the Masoretic Hebrew text edited by Jacob Ben Chayyim.
            http://www.thekingsbible.com/KjvToday/ReliableHebrew.aspx

    • maria, “not in need of genealogy (that of the OT inclusive) but of freedom and individual spiritual mature growing without mediators toward God”
      and
      maria, “But most of all, the Pauline christianity created a church structure of power and jerarchy, while the Gnostic one preached that no terrestrial intermediators were needed for the man could reach God.”

      I thought in general what you posted maria provided the concerns of the Scriptural and the Gnostic, the two, fairly well.

      Two things for me to nit-pick 🙂 : First, the Essenes did not go and worship at the true Temple, who is Christ Jesus, when He appeared. Second, the only exception I would take from what I quoted from you above is the Scripture, or what mainly had been referred to as the Pauline in your comment, does not instruct church authority mediates. Scripture is explicitly is written against mediation by church authority, because there is only one mediator Christ Jesus. In the OT, there were mediators, the priests, for they were instructed to take the time and energy to serve out their days at the Temple (aside from other duties in individual towns) and offer up the sacrifices. They were given the instructions by God on how to carry out the Temple duties. They were considered mediators in that sense. In the NT, there are no mediators, because Christ is the complete high priest who offered Himself and did not need a sacrifice for His own sins (the priests of the old covenant (OT) sacrificed for the covenant people but also had to offer sacrifices for their own sins, not that the sacrifices atoned for the sins but they were visual instructions of the substitutionary atonement to be revealed, who was in Christ Jesus). Christ continues to do His high priestly duty now as He mediates between God and man in offering up Himself as a continual satisfaction for the sin of those who believe in Him offering up of Himself for their sin. Church elders are ordained by God to oversee the church, because God had created humans to have leaders who conduct business and specialized duties that the rest of us are not able. For example, my pastor studies the Bible and prepares a sermon all week. Others in the congregation do not have the time to do such, because we work at our jobs. The pastor has a job. We have a job. We pay him through our offerings. We also put money into the offering for many other things, but another example is our church building roof was getting old (it was over 150 years old). It needed replaced. Our church saved the money over time and replaced it this past autumn. Other church business is conducted, as in any social group that meets together on a regular basis, and there are appointed men to carry out these duties, because everybody else is working at their jobs. The only person in our church who is regularly paid to solely work for the church is the pastor. The other elders hold regular jobs and in their time after work, or while they are now retired from their jobs, they spend the extra time and energy to conduct other business to keep the church functional. It is very practical. But they are not mediators. Christ is the only Mediator.

      • thanks, adirondack, for your insights.
        the post of intriguedbyr was so comprehensive, complete and on point that I’d like to quote it here, as a comment on your post though.

        • Yes, even though intriguedbyr had not communicated no direct bearing on the topic, which in the main was mediation; I understand you are therefore trying to communicate something that intriguedbyr wrote, but you did not, and in fact, I did not either. To summarize, what I pointed out was your comment (I quoted you) on what Scripture established is not in fact nowhere to be found in Scripture. You may disagree with Scripture, which you do and have firmly established, but I wanted to make sure that Scripture was respected for what is actually written on its’ own inherit basis and meaning and not glossed over with a misunderstanding as to what actually is written there within. That was my point with our conversation, not that we have to continue with it currently, but I found it proper and respectful to not misidentify intriguedbyr’s and mine conversation into a different topic of discussion you and I were having. It is unfair to both intriguedbyr and myself to try to make the two conversations have a direct bearing upon each other. Maybe intriguedbyr does believe hierarchial so-called churches of today are rightly informed by Scripture in order to build a class of mediators of people between God and man, as you thought, but I find nowhere in Scripture such an understanding to support your conclusion. But I do not want to assume so, and do not think it is fair to assume so without intriguedbyr’s consent.

          Sorry intriguedbyr for bringing up your name in our discussion. You may agree with maria on the specific topic, but I did not want to assume.

  26. Sharing Fake News Makes You an Accomplice in Evil, Pope says

    http://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2018/01/24/sharing-fake-news-makes-you-an-accomplice-in-evil-pope-says/

    LOL, seems like they’re getting desperate now. Perhaps their Vatican -Jesuit owned media could tell the truth for a change so as not to ‘entrap’ the people into doing evil things. 🙂

    • IF what this man said in his book is true, Erdogan is just another FAKE crypto actor.

      “Author Ergun Poyraz, a Turkish wrote a bestselling book, The Children of Moses which is why he was 08/05/2013 sentenced to 29 years in prison for espionage against the Turkish government and he was later murdered 22 April, 2016. Ergun Poyraz reveals in his book The Children of Moses, that the current Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is a crypto jew.

      – Poyraz tells how President Erdogan came to power in Turkey with the help of Zionists which are behind the so-called JİTEM Turkey, a Secret Turkish intelligence service. JİTEM are believed to be behind many bombings, terrorism and other illegal practices. It is also understood to have close links with Ergenek, which is part of the US CIA Operation Gladio.”

      http://blogit.mvlehti.net/eurostokolhoosi/2016/07/17/turkish-crypto-jew-president-erdogan-destroying-europe/

      • …but then they tried to oust him with the made-in-CIA coup d’etat…seemed more than real…if it were not for the russians…

        • Zionists, in my opinion, not claiming expertise, ARE RUSSIAN JEWS, as are the East Coast MAFIA JEWS, Bolshevik Jews…. Communists. The ones who were brought over during the World War by the Vatican Jesuits after destroying Germany and Russia before them. Just a thought…. but I think most all of the leaders today, are playing a role, albeit some have become too arrogant perhaps even for their counterparts, and the power has gone to their heads – Games of Thrones

          The other side to ALL of this – THEY are building major infrastructure projects over there – Huge dams, nuclear power, etc. and THEY need a war to pay for the projects and fill up their coffers again, all for the eventual gain of Israel, who is two faced and involved in many of these projects, while they pretend to be targets of these nations.

          • General Electric is presently being investigated by the SEC. Their stock took a big hit.

            Coincidentally, they’ve been focusing on energy projects in Turkey since 2010.

            http://www.invest.gov.tr/en-US/infocenter/news/Pages/041010-general-electric-focus-energy-projects-turkey.aspx

          • Zionists, in my opinion, are the members (both high-rank & low-rank) of the mafia-like organisation that serves the money & projects of the ((they)) oligarchs (those who stole all the money of the west in the 19th century).
            very wisely ((they/those mafia oligarchs)) started to export normal jews from Europe to both South&North America (as well the Bolshevik Revolution & the subsequent communist regime was their courtesy) so that later, on the basis of a fed “common jewish good”/”holocaust memorials” etc…(they) could build a steady & far-reaching web of obedient-sect-like members, + !!opportunists of all backgrounds!!, all over the globe and so further with ((their)) agenda…end-game: the chipping. 😦

      • Although we understand they are all actors playing their well defined roles .. I’m convinced they are unaware they are controlled and actually believe they are fulfilling their historic/prophetic destiny .. in order to deceive others it is first necessary to deceive one’s-self

        https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-01-29/us-turkish-troops-headed-military-showdown-syria

        • I’m sure you’re right in most cases Rev17, especially within the ‘royal’ and ruling oligarch families. Some, I’m sure in the lower chambers of the pyramid, are blackmailed and fear for the lives of themselves and their families once they’re comfortable in their positions of power, but it’s probably because of their ‘crimes’ they were ‘selected’ in the first place, ex..Congress, Senate, Presidents. Others have the necessary personalities to fill these jobs as well, narcissistic sociopaths and psychopaths.

          However, it’s very true – ‘in order to deceive other, it’s first necessary to deceive one’s self.

          • ‘especially within the ‘royal’ and ruling oligarch families.’ .. they are bred for this purpose ..

            After becoming emperor, to show his independence of the old Roman institutions and to bring a thoroughly eastern flavor into his government, Septimus Severus went to Syria and there married the daughter of the high priest of Emesa, the priest of the Babylonian Sun-god. Her name was Julia Domna. Why was this marriage concluded? Simply in order to make a Syro-Phoenician hierarchy to rule the Empire.

            “That Septimus now chose to ally himself with Julia Domna is the clearest possible indication that his authority should depend on his own race. Rome had defeated Carthage, Rome had dominated Syria. Now, Carthage would unite with Syria to dominate Rome.”
            Perowne, Caesars and Saints, p.51

            This union was highly propitious to the spread of Babylonian religious beliefs on a large scale throughout the Roman Empire. Now the gates were wide open. In fact, Severus was told by his priestly advisors to marry Julia. He was informed that great things were awaiting him and his race by marrying her (see Williams, Historians’ History, vol.6. p.388). ….

            The whole government at Rome was becoming, literally, an eastern court. The people were dressing in long robe-like Syro-Phoenician garb. The Emperor himself dressed like a Babylonian pontiff with full regalia. Or, as Gibbon puts it:

            “He was drawn in his sacerdotal robes of silk and gold, after the loose flowing fashion of the Medes and Phoenicians: his head was covered with a lofty tiara, his numerous collars and bracelets were adorned with gems of an inestimable value.”
            Gibbon, Decline and Fall, ch. 6

            What a description. Here was an emperor (a pontiff himself) dressed almost precisely like the Popes today: tiara on the head, richly flowing robes and precious jewels, carried about from place to place. This is what Babylonianism brought to the Roman world, and this happening just under two centuries after Jesus and the apostles were on earth. And this emperor did not stop with elevating his own priesthood, he also promoted the Syrian priests to the official priesthood at Rome.

            http://www.askelm.com/people/peo020.htm

            • Great article Rev. Papal bloodlines stay in control by marrying into rich or ruling families – I think they call the old Babylonian System today – Democracy ruled by Oligarchs – same motive, same beast system in my opinion. 🙂

              • for me this book is gold as it supports my long held theory that the popes and Zionists are in fact Edomites .. the fulfillment of Esau’s blessing .. Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above; and by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck. Gen 27

                And in the 1st century, when it was expected by most Jews and even Gentiles that the Bible was prophesying the end of the age, the Jewish authorities saw in the prophecy of Isaiah 34 that the last prophetic kingdom to rule the world was that of Edom. And since Daniel’s last Iron Kingdom was not identified racially, it was common for the Jews at the time to state that this last Kingdom of mankind was the Edomite kingdom of prophecy. Since the world was then expected to be succeeded by the Kingdom of God, the Jews looked at the political environment and found only the Roman Empire capable, as they saw it, of filling the demands of the prophecies. Thus, it became common in the 1st century to equate Rome with the final empire of Edom. How did Rome become “Edom”?

                There is no doubt that the Jews recognized Rome as the prophetic Edom as early as the 1st century. Note the statements of Philo, the Alexandrian Jewish scholar, in his discourse “On the Unchangeableness of God.” He started a major section on what he called “the earthly Edom” (sect.XXX). He continued his survey of this “earthly Edom” through to section XXXVI where he then began to talk about “whole countries and nations.” He mentioned Greece succeeded by Macedon, then Persia succeeded by Parthia, then Egypt, Ethiopia and then Carthage. He then stated that now the “whole of the inhabited world has been conquered.” This is clearly a reference to the Roman Empire. He did not mention Rome by name. But he then stated that even that great world power will also be destroyed by God. Philo then abruptly returns to his discussion about the “earthly Edom” (section XXXVII). Cryptically, but clearly, Philo disguised the Empire of Rome with that of “Edom.”

                The identification did not stop there. When “The Rabbi” (Judah ha-Nasi) compiled the Mishnah about C.E. 200, it became common to refer to those in charge of the Roman government as Edomites. The identification was especially appropriate at the time when the Severide Dynasty of emperors were in control of Rome (from C.E. 193 to 235).

                The first of these emperors was Septimus Severus.

                http://www.askelm.com/people/index.asp

                • “for me this book is gold as it supports my long held theory that the popes and Zionists are in fact Edomites .. the fulfillment of Esau’s blessing”
                  so are you stating that the Paulinist Christianism (the one we know today in the West, the RCC on the 1st place) was in fact some kind of trojan course to make the edomites’ prophecies come true?
                  (I might not understood you correctly…though it’s something I’m thinking upon for some time now…:/)

                • Rev, do you think it’s safe to say, this Eucemenical call from Rome, to create their NWO, a global universal religion for all, a one world order, IS the endtime Edom ?

                  It seems like we’re already living under Edomite rule, although not totally complete yet.

                  This is a great article… absolutely describes the Edomite spirit of these men

                  From becoming a master charioteer to keeping the gods on your side, making a success of yourself in Ancient Rome was no mean feat. In his new self-help book, ‘Release Your Inner Roman’, written from the perspective of a fictional Roman nobleman named Marcus Sidonius Falx, Dr Jerry Toner sets out the characteristics that have made the Romans the most successful people in history. Here, writing for History Extra, Marcus Sidonius Falx shares his top tips for climbing the social ladder…

                  http://www.historyextra.com/period/roman/how-to-succeed-in-ancient-rome/

                  • I think there will be no doubt when the end time Edom has come .. that which is currently done in secret will not only be accepted and approved but will be legal .. that being the public rape, butchering and sacrifice of innocent children and anyone who would dare protest .. the reality of Cannanite worship will be fully restored ..

                    Thanks for the article a very interesting read .. as a master craftsman in architectural woodworking I have had opportunity to work for the wealthy elite in the world of finance and religion .. I have also had the great honor to live with a poor family in Dominican Republic who taught me the difference between wealth and value

                • Esau is “Edom” which means “Red,” his major characteristic; and Babylon the Great, this world-system, called the “Beast” in Revelation, is also “scarlet” or RED — “a scarlet colored beast” (Revelation 17:3)!

                  • Esau Have I Hated!

                    The most ancient authoritative information on Phoenicia comes to us from the Canaanite historian Sanchaniathon. Predating even the era of the great Greek poet Homer, he provides us with some very pertinent and most enlightening facts concerning the origins of the Phoenicians. According to Sanchaniathon, a people from the area of the Erythraean Sea migrated into the Galilee and from there to the seacoast. The imminent Greek historian Herodotus confirms this as well.

                    The word Erythraean means red, a fact that must not be lost on us as we investigate the Phoenicians. According to most of the ancient historians, including Diodorus Siculus, Aristophanes, and Plutarch, the Erythraean Sea was, in fact, the Red Sea, receiving its name not due to its color actually being red, but from Esau or Edom, the son of Jacob, some of whose descendants occupied the eastern Sinai peninsula, ranging over into certain areas of Arabia. Note a passage to this effect in I Kings 9:

                    “And king Solomon made a navy of ships in Eziongeber, which is beside Eloth, on the shore of the Red Sea, in the land of EDOM” (I Kgs. 9:26).

                    In the extended prophecy against Tyre found in Ezekiel 26-28, it seems most appropriate that the descendants of Esau should be so directly connected with this ancient city-state, because in the description of its great fall, we read language almost identical to that written in the book of Revelation with regard to the demise of the end-time world-ruling system of evil, which, as we will come to see, also is strongly connected to latter-day Edomites. Note the interesting and amazing comparisons below:

                    “Behold, I am against you, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against you…And they shall make a spoil of your riches, and make a prey of your merchandise…And I will cause the noise of your songs to cease; and the sound of your harps shall be no more heard” (Ezek. 26:3, 12-13).

                    “And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in you; and no craftsman of whatever craft he may be shall be found any more in you…for your merchants were the great men of the earth; for by your sorceries were all nations deceived” (Rev. 18:22-23).

                    That Esau and the Edomites were directly connected to the Phoenicians is a virtual given. One of the chief gods in the Phoenician pantheon bore the name of Ousoos, unequivocally identified with Esau. The Dictionary of Religion & Ethics states:

                    “There is no question but that this Usous (Ousoos) within the Phoenician pantheon was the Biblical Esau” (vol. XI, p. 179).

                    Even Tyre itself was at one time known as Ushu, without doubt etymologically connected to the name of Esau. As stated earlier, it was the Greeks who called the inhabitants of the Levant Phoenicians. But why such a name? Perhaps it should not come as any great surprise to learn that the definition of the word Phoenicia is the color red! Thus both Edom and Phoenicia have the same meaning!

                    Once again, Sanchaniathon informs us that it was the god Usous (Esau) who taught the Phoenicians the art of ship-building and navigation, two skills for which they eventually became world famous. Historians generally hold that the Phoenicians were the first civilization to create a full alphabet, and not surprisingly, this same Usous is also credited with inventing and imparting to the Phoenicians the first standard collection of writing characters, upon which most of the western alphabets are based.

                    And lest we forget, please be reminded that Isaac’s firstborn son, Esau, against the will of God and to the everlasting displeasure and sorrow of his parents, married into the evil Canaanites by taking two of the daughters of Heth, progenitor of the powerful Hittite empire. Under no circumstances can Esau’s cursed Canaanite relations be relegated to a mere error in human judgment. These marriages were carefully and specifically contrived by Esau who, having lost both his birthright and firstborn blessings, sought advantageous ties with the Hittites in order to secure for himself and his progeny a strong financial and military base from which to operate. Certain branches of the Edomites established seaports at Aqaba and other locations on the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf. They gained all the necessary sailing skills required of a seafaring people, thus the Edomite clan that migrated into Phoenicia arrived already well educated in the ways of ocean travel and commerce.

                    http://albores.net/csp/esau_3.htm

  27. A couple different opinions on this page of Why Jesus was NOT a Jew, but at the bottom of the page is this ….

    Who was the First Jew?
    John Standring

    We know that Saul was the first king of Israel and that John was the first man called Baptist, but who was the first Jew? Neither Adam, Seth or Noah are called Jew. Nor were Abraham, Isaac or Jacob. Moses was not called a Jew and neither were Saul, David or Solomon called Jew. In fact you will not find the word Jew in the first eleven books of the Bible. The first time Jews are mentioned in the Bible, is in II Kings 16:6 (and then only in translations revised in the eighteenth century) where we find Israel was at war with the Jews and drave the Jews from Elath.

    Isn’t it interesting that we can read over five hundred pages of the Bible before we find a Jew anywhere, yet those who call themselves Jew today claim the first five books of the bible and call it their Torah. Do you not find it rather strange that those who claim to have written the first five books of the Bible and call themselves Jew, can’t find the word Jew written anywhere in the book they call their own bible, and claim to have written?

    Jesus Christ tells John in Revelation 2:9 “I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews and are not, but are the SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN”. We know that God changed the name of Abram to Abraham in Genesis 17:5, and that He changed the name of Jacob to Israel in Genesis 32:28, but nowhere in the Bible do we find where God changed the name of Israel to Jew! There is therefore no authority by which those who say they are Jews can claim to be Israel!

    By the time of Jesus the word Edom or Edomite had been translated by Greek and Latin into Ioudaios and Iudaeus meaning a Judean or person living in Judea. The original King James version of the Bible, 1611, translated Idumaean-Judean into Iewes. It wasn’t until the revised editions of the King James Bible, that the word Jew appeared. The word Jew does not mean Israel or Israelite! We must conclude therefore that the first “Jews” were Canaanite-Edomite-Hittite. It is certain, according to the Bible, that Jews are not Israel.

    jesusjew.htm

    http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/jesusjew.htm#JESUS

    • Isn’t it interesting that we can read over five hundred pages of the Bible before we find a Jew anywhere, yet those who call themselves Jew today claim the first five books of the bible and call it their Torah. Do you not find it rather strange that those who claim to have written the first five books of the Bible and call themselves Jew, can’t find the word Jew written anywhere in the book they call their own bible, and claim to have written?

    • The Roman Empire The Empire of the Edomite

      Unspeakable, then^ must our astonishment be, when we perceive, that this grand secret was certainly discovered, and disclosed, more than twelve hundred years ago; that the true answer to the question WHENCE CAME THE ROMANS? may have been returned, and even registered in writing, before the birth of Christ; that the response proceeded neither from Greek nor Roman, but from the DESPISED JEW ; that it has been preserved to us in the JEWISH TARGUMS; that it exists amidst the fables and impieties, the absurdities and the blasphemies, of the JEWISH TALMUD; and that it may be comprehended in these twenty words: THE ROMANS CAME FROM ESAU, WHO IS EDOM; AND ITALY IS THE IDUMEA,ROME THE BOZRAH, OF THE HEBREW PRO- PHETS.

      William Beeston. The Roman empire the empire of the Edomite (Kindle Locations 45-50).

  28. “Passion of the Christ” sequel coming, will cover Resurrection

    [link to http://www.wnd.com]

    Earlier this month in Chicago, Caviezel warned against false Christianity, and urged believers to publicly voice their faith in “this pagan world.”

    “I want you to go out into this pagan world, I want you to have the courage to step into this pagan world and shamelessly express your faith in public. The world needs proud warriors animated by their faith,” he told the Fellowship of Catholic University Students SLS Leadership Conference.

    “Warriors like Saint Paul and Saint Luke who risked their names, their reputations to take their faith, their love for Jesus into the world.

    “God is calling each one of us, each one of you to do great things but how often we fail to respond, dismissing it as some mental blurp. It’s time for our generation, now, to accept that call, the call of God urging all of us to give ourselves entirely to Him.”

    So, while ‘they’ are filling the screens and internet with Kabbalistic Paganism, Knights of Medieval times, Harry Potter, Wizards and Warlocks, Hobbits and Trolls, sigils and memes, exposing their black magick rituals, corrupt governments, sex and child trafficking, and pedophilia, the UNIVERSAL ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH urges us to voice our faith in this ‘pagan world’.

    Quite the little show of Hegelian Dialectic and duality they’ve got going on, seems to me they’re looking for a few new Crusaders for the common good of the church again 🙂

    • Gee, I wonder how this will play out.

    • “Quite the little show of Hegelian Dialectic and duality they’ve got going on, seems to me they’re looking for a few new Crusaders for the common good of the church again”

      …exactly. and at the end of the day, socially ingeneerise us, the slaves, to fulfil what YHW promised to Abraham:

      ((“father of many nations”, you know…)

      • Jezebel introduced another facet of Phoenician worship, that of male and female temple prostitutes. The monies generated by these sexual perverts helped finance the service to the goddess Astarte. Demon-worship was also prevalent among the Canaanites, as was the practice of cannibalism. In fact, the very term itself is derived from the two words Canaan and Baal. We must continually remember that it was these peoples descended from Ham and his son Canaan, and into whose line Esau married and with whom his descendants intermingled, that were instrumental in re-establishing the pre-Flood religion and moral decay that originally brought about the destruction of the human race. They were commanded by God to be utterly destroyed by Israel, but the people failed to fully obey this most significant divine instruction. The result, of course, was the utter perversion of the Israelites, a wretched condition that is still alive and well in our very day and time!

        http://albores.net/csp/esau_3.htm

    • The Horite Ancestry of Jesus Christ

      http://jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-horite-ancestry-of-jesus-christ_8.html

    • It is an amazing fact of history, that within just a few short years of His life on earth, an apostasy, a falling away from the Truth, seized and captivated the hearts and minds of most of the masses, just while the small flock of His true disciples began to disappear. The Jewish Messiah from Nazareth, Israel became the victim of history’s greatest”Identity Theft”, bringing about a change of His Name and Person, so as to render Him and His Atoning Work, if it were possible, powerless and purposeless. The brains behind this masterful conspiracy of unprecedented deception was [and is] heaven’s adversary, the spirit personality we know as Satan. The muscle for this ignominious project was the powerful Roman Empire. The instrument that orchestrated this whole symphony of sanctified discordant propositions and assertions was the Gentile religious establishment which assumed its role as “the vicar of truth”, and came to be known as the Roman Catholic (and) Christian Church. Through this majestic and muscular church-state alliance, a broad road of compromise and concession was paved with the crumbling stones of the ancient and pervasive Mystery Religion of Babylon, and held together with the mortar of syncretism. Of all of the Church’s notable successes, none of her achievements was more significant and consequential than the Identity Theft of the ‘Jewish Messiah Yahoshua’ by the ‘Christian Christ Jesus’. And for twenty centuries, this transmogrified Yahoshua [Joshua] the Moshiach [Messiah] into “Jesus Christ” has been presented to the world as the Saviour.

      Norman Martin Wolk, M.D.. The Light in the Wilderness:How Religion Has Led the World Astray (Kindle Locations 4530-4537). AuthorHouse. Kindle Edition.

      • ‘ The Jewish Messiah from Nazareth, Israel became the victim of history’s greatest”Identity Theft”, bringing about a change of His Name and Person, so as to render Him and His Atoning Work, if it were possible, powerless and purposeless. The brains behind this masterful conspiracy of unprecedented deception was [and is] heaven’s adversary, the spirit personality we know as Satan. The muscle for this ignominious project was the powerful Roman Empire. ‘

        YES, the Roman Empire is the muscle, along with the synagogue of satan who calls themselves ‘jews’ but are not ‘jews’, and I’m still not convinced Christ was ‘Jewish’, but that doesn’t mean I’m right.
        I don’t think Christ came to establish a ‘religion’ at all. I think he came to warn us about what was happening and WHO was doing it. He came to teach the way of the Father, and to give his life in return for the sins of mankind who were deceived by Satan, so we would have eternal life.

        This site below refers to the Creator God as Jehovah, I don’t know that is HIS name either, because there are too many names from too many ‘religions’, so I admit, I don’t know his name, in the bible it says I AM, I call Him Father or the Divine Creator. The modern Evangelicals have began calling him all sorts of new names, which adds to the confusion, however I am able to SEE them doing it, so while they too revise their religions, I don’t need to wonder about them, I know what they are doing.
        I can’t say for fact whether or not this site if one hundred percent correct either, but it has some factual and interesting information in it, and again it leads back to Canaanites and Esau.

        Emperor Constantine and his mother/wife Helena were the founders of the Latin Papacy and the city of Constantinople.
        ‘Jesus Constantine’ was the grandson of Roman Emperor Caracalla and his mother/wife Julia Domna.

        Emperor Septimius Severus was the husband of Julia Domna. Septimius means SEVEN and Severus means SEVERE. A literal rendering of the name would be “Severe Seven.”

        The Emperor was indeed severe as he waded through rivers of blood in order to mount the throne of the Caesars.

        http://reformation.org/constantine-and-helena.html

        • it is not surprising with Easu/ Phoenician alphabetic skill in creating the word ‘Jew’ as a deceptive device to assist in the Identity theft ..

          Yahudah was the name of one of the 12 sons of Ya’aqob (Jacob) renamed Israel by Yahweh (G-d). The Yahudim were known in Scriptural history as the people that occupied the “Southern Kingdom” of Yahud, the Southern portion of the “original” land that was set apart for Israel (before the dispersion) by Yahweh. As used in the “Modern” English translated Scriptures, the word ‘Jew’ is a miss-translated English word to refer to a Yahudim, a native or inhabitant (which would include many diverse races and people groups) of those who were living in the region of Yahud. It is similar as the word ‘American’ includes many diverse peoples living in the Country called ‘America’. The word Yahudim most often refers to an advocate or an adherent to the religion of the Scriptural Yahudi. In some cases it may refer to a literal descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, one of the descendants of the tribe named after Yahudah, but this would be very rare.

          It is important to remember, that, In the original Scriptures:
          it is Yahudah, not Judah
          it is Yahudi, not Jews, or Yews, or Iues
          it is the religion of Yahudaism, not Judaism, or Jewism
          it is the Ancient Kingdom of Yahud, not Judah
          it is Yahudim, or Yahudym, (people of any race in the Kingdom of Yahud) not Judahite

          The Hebrew letter “Yowd” (Y) and the “He’ (hay) have always been a part of Yahudah’s name, pronounced as “Yah.” The Scriptural people of the tribe of Yahudah carried the name of the Creator Yahweh “Yah” in their name “Yah be praised” (Genesis 29: 35).” The word Jew(s), and the word Jewish, or the word Judaism, does not include the name of the Almighty Creator (Yah-weh). This reason alone is evidence that the Jews are not descendants of the Israelite tribe of Yahudah!

          It must also be remembered, that modern dictionary definitions are based on popular meanings, but that they are not always historical, and do not always follow correct etymology of the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek sounds, or meaning of the word(s). For example: The Greek word “Ioudaios” does not mean “Jew” or “Jewish” which are only English developed words dating from the 15th century.

          http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/TruthPage/Jew_in_scripture.htm

          • Thanks Rev17, that helps a lot. So much deception and revision has pervaded the world for the benefit of a few men and the god they chose to serve.

            • Incredibly only 500 years ago the letter J did not exist .. prior to the publication of the KJV the name Jesus and Jew were methodically encrypted into the bible and the entire world has been so thoroughly indoctrinated by this deception, it is extremely difficult to unravel .. although when I had a life changing transformation reading 1 Peter 1 in 1972, I thoroughly embraced the name Jesus .. I now consider the name Jesus and Jew both to be illegal false identities and it requires quite the balancing act to discern who is actually being referred to in various historical writings as many are modern translations and therefore use illegitimate substitutions and serve only to confuse and deceive .. for this reason understanding the Name is foundational ..

              In 125 BC John Hyrcanus forcibly circumcised the Edomites and incorporated them into the tribe of Yahudah (no J) .. Edomite king Herod under Edomite/Roman authority assassinated the legitimate priesthood replacing them with Edomites .. the name Yahweh was then forbidden to be spoken and still forbidden today by Jews and the pope .. the tetragrammaton YHWH was also removed from the scriptures and substituted with ‘LORD’ meaning BAAL .. 7000 times

              Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have NOT DENIED MY NAME. 9 Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are YAHUDIM and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. Rev 3

              My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge .. Hosea 4

              Regardless of opposition I will continue to use the authentic names .. Yahweh Yahshua Yahudim .. to do otherwise is to assist in the deception

              The Letter J

              http://theletterj.followersofyah.com/

              • Fascinating.

                • it therefore begs the question .. who is Jesus Christ? .. just another name? .. or another entity??

                  “I have come in my Father’s Name, and you do not receive Me; if another shall come in his own name, you will receive him.” (John 5:43)

                  Indeed, another ‘man’ did come in his own name. He was received by the whole world; and in his name a religion has been founded, and a church has been established. The counterfeit “messiah and lord” comes in the name of another. He is an agent of the master of deception and delusion. He has joined forces with all the powerful religious, spiritual, political, and military forces that have ever emanated from Babylon and the evil one himself. He is the antichrist, and the antimessiah. He holds the whole world in his sway. His name is “JESUS CHRIST”!

                  Norman Martin Wolk, M.D.. The Light in the Wilderness:How Religion Has Led the World Astray (Kindle Locations 2149-2158). AuthorHouse. Kindle Edition.

                  • http://www.faithfounder.com/author/
                    he is a family physician, not historian of the religions/of the primitive christianity…
                    having said that, the fact is Yeshua did not establish any religion: he was a hebrew rabbi (=devoted to the scripture) from Nazareth who predicated the fulfilment of the scripture (OT), i.e the establishment of the Gods reign in Israel.
                    the christianity was founded really – but not intentionally – by St. Paul and his followers during the decades after Yeshua´s dead; they thought that the teachings of that hebrew rabbi could serve also/be exported to the gentiles to reach the God of the Scriptures, the hebrew’s God YHW.

                  • I would like to ask you, all of you who are participating in this headline, a question:
                    One day I was a Hebrew woman, with children, in Jesus’ time, I remember some things because of a regression when I was about thirty years old, and that was very important for me, now in this life I was born in southern Europe ; Where do you think I am, or do I really come from? Where is my root?
                    Maybe the answers, help us all.

                  • and another detail: on one occasion in this life, an immensely extraordinary being came looking for me, because he had told me that if he could, He would return and we would continue talking, but since I was not in that usual place that day he returned, he left this message to a work colleague so that she could take me, and without further ado he left. Something like that, more or less, was the message that my co-worker gave me: Please, when you see her, you tell her that Chus was here, and I asked about her.
                    Chus, is a familiar abbreviation used in the area where I lived to call those whose name is Jesus, in Spanish the translation of Josuha is accented: Jesús.
                    She, my co-worker, just seeing the image of that Being, and listening to the abbreviation, Chus, although she did not say anything about it, understood very well who that magnificent Being was; everything in her like that was telling me.

                    I tell many things about Jesus, here, and much more in my books. I only write real life, that reality that “they” by all means try to hide it, the truth, that half of the people of the Earth, are looking for.

                    • thanks, Rosario. very interesting story&regression..

                    • somewhere I read, something that seems to be said by Jesus, more or less like this: The human being is like a powerful ship prepared to sail oceans with storms, but many remain sheltered from the ports, without moving, until the deterioration and collapse.
                      I’m sure something like that, or similar, could have been said by Jesus. And I add: many people get comfortable, to the point where they even end up serving the dark side that oppresses and dehumanizes them, without wanting to find out more, while that comfort is dragging them towards darkness, emptiness and nothingness.
                      that is the lack of love, and thus, love disappears, which is Lucifer’s main goal, that love disappears, that Jesus disappears, with his mother, with his angels, and with all those who have risked even losing their lives to eradicate evil, injustice, and love to succeed on Earth.

                    • Thanks rosario, very well said. Excellent

                      “The human being is like a powerful ship prepared to sail oceans with storms, but many remain sheltered from the ports, without moving, until the deterioration and collapse.”

                      “many people get comfortable, to the point where they even end up serving the dark side that oppresses and dehumanizes them, without wanting to find out more, while that comfort is dragging them towards darkness, emptiness and nothingness.”

              • thanks, Rev. and intrigued.

                there is no doubt that the Bible we know today has been object of “making” (=transformation of the initial message, names, teachings, details, etc, etc, etc.) for centuries…sonce the very beginning.

                But I can´t quite understand what is your point here: do you say that the todays jews (edomites?) & form of the Bible are the non legit (=deception) while the YHWH, with His chosen people the 12 hebrew tribes, is the legit God?

                what really fascinates me is HOW?? such a tiny, in the beginning, hebrew sect could make all the way to becoming the oficial (& unique!! = 380 a.d. on) religion of the cosmopolitan, multicultural&multiracial Gentile (=pagan) late Roman empire…???…

                • If I have this correct, and if not, I hope Rev17 will correct me, but 10 Israelite tribes scattered and did not return to Palestine. Many went all over Europe. There were supposedly only two tribes who served the Roman Empire – Judah and Benjamin. The Ten Tribes have been absorbed among the nations of the world and many have intermarried and were absorbed into surrounding nations and races. I imagine there are many people who have no clue ‘they’ are part of the Israelite tribe, albeit, perhaps not what is said to be ‘purebloods’. My guess is Christianity via the Holy Roman Empire, created this myth that all 12 tribes were ‘jewish’.

                  • “My guess is Christianity via the Holy Roman Empire, created this myth that all 12 tribes were ‘jewish’.”
                    with what purpose?

                  • Excellent .. I could not have said it better .. I would only add, the ten ‘lost’ tribes were not lost as Peter knew exactly where they were .. writing his first letter to them, he addressed them as refugees ..

                    From Peter, apostle of Yahshua Ha Mashiach—
                    To Yahweh’s chosen people who live as refugees scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. 2 You were chosen according to the purpose of God the Father and were made a holy people by his Spirit, to obey Yahshua Ha Mashiach and be purified by his blood. 1 Peter 1

                    Although they may have been pure bloodline descendants of Abraham Issac and Jacob/Israel their bloodline was now irrelevant .. they were chosen for the purpose of maintaining the purity of the Seed of the Messiah .. but like Esau they intermarried with the Canaanites .. they defiled the bloodline and were taken into exile by the Assyrians and lost their inheritance ..

                    Peter wrote to inform them of the promised Messiah .. that it was only by the blood of Yahshua Ha Mashiach they could find favor with the Father ..

                    as the Messiah said .. ‘no one comes to the Father except by Me’

                    Therefore as to being ‘chosen’ they were chosen for a specific purpose to maintain the seedline from Shem to Yahshua .. the faithful remnant who served this purpose were the Essenes .. now anyone who believes in the Messiah is CHOSEN .. bloodlines and genealogy are no longer relevant

                    • very interesting, thanks Rev.

                      “Although they may have been pure bloodline descendants of Abraham Issac and Jacob/Israel their bloodline was now irrelevant”
                      “now anyone who believes in the Messiah is CHOSEN .. bloodlines and genealogy are no longer relevant”
                      …where does that quote come from, Rev? thanks.

                    • quote .. Rev17 .. lol

                    • ” now anyone who believes in the Messiah is CHOSEN .. bloodlines and genealogy are no longer relevant”

                      YES, – David’s KEY “The prophet Isaiah said the Lord would replace Shebna with a man named Eliakim. The Lord would “place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open” (Isaiah 22:22). Thus, Eliakim would be a kind of gatekeeper with power to control entry into the royal kingdom. As the king’s steward, he would decide who could or could not have access to the king.”
                      The genealogy of Joseph, the father of Jesus, is listed. This verse covers the section somewhat after the Babylonian Captivity six generation before Jesus.
                      In the King James Version of the Bible the text reads:
                      And Zorobabel begat Abiud;
                      and Abiud begat Eliakim;
                      and Eliakim begat Azor;
                      The World English Bible translates the passage as:
                      Zerubbabel became the father of Abiud.
                      Abiud became the father of Eliakim.
                      Eliakim became the father of Azor.

                      Christ is that key, he decides who gets in the kingdom!
                      I think these people in high places, are playing out the scriptures over and over again.

                      The Book of Joshua is the sixth book in the Hebrew Bible and the first book of the Deuteronomistic history, the story of Israel from the conquest of Canaan to the Babylonian exile. It tells of the campaigns of the Israelites in central, southern and northern Canaan, the destruction of their enemies, and the division of the land among the Twelve Tribes, framed by two set-piece speeches, the first by God commanding the conquest of the land, and, at the end, the last by Joshua warning of the need for faithful observance of the Law revealed to Moses.

                      This cabal has been nation building in the Middle East and Northern Africa region since after 9/11. They are creating another ‘New World’ – The land will be divided between the ruling families in their mafiosa ‘tribe’. IF they do indeed, make Jerusalem the capital, you can bet THEY plan to rule from there.

                    • couldn’t agree more Int.

                    • Wow, I love that summary, That was Awesome Rev, and ties so many loose ends up for me.

                    • Intrigued & Rev:
                      excuse me, but I can’t follow you both…could you try to make an easier scheme or something of who is deceiving who doing what for what purpose…sorry, but I got confused…:/

      • It has always been a world made of two kinds of people: believers and unbelievers. Believers rest their faith in the God of Scripture, trusting He did accomplish His work of salvation in the Person of Jesus Christ.

        rev17, “Identity Theft of the ‘Jewish Messiah Yahoshua’ by the ‘Christian Christ Jesus’. And for twenty centuries, this transmogrified Yahoshua [Joshua] the Moshiach [Messiah] into “Jesus Christ” has been presented to the world as the Saviour.”

        The Name of God has referred to the reverence of God. When God does something in His name, God is upholding His reputation and honor. The violation of the name of God is to violate the 3rd Commandment, “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.”

        Rev17, I think the German Liberal Theology that started in the 18th century, which gets caught up in biology, non-supernatural, and language=philosophy interpretations, fails to communicate the ideas and meanings that words in language convey. It also fails, I think, to understand language itself. Language uses words as signs that point to a real meaningful “thing” (person, place, action, etc.). To dismiss what a person means and thus the ideas they are communicated based on non-relevant cultural contexts, or philosophies. For example, Christianity is not Greek philosophy and to confuse the two only demonstrates the misunderstanding the person has as to what Christianity is and what Greek philosophy is. When a person uses the words “Jesus Christ” it is best to understand what the person means by the words and not to dismiss the meaning and ideas the person had communicated.

        The two words “Jesus Christ” in the English language refers to the Person who is God and man who accomplished His earthly ministry some two thousand years ago. He is the substitutionary atonement for those who believe He satisfies God’s justice for the eternal punishment of the eternal transgression man’s sin against God. For those we do not believe Jesus Christ satisfied God’s eternal justice by taking the eternal punishment in the place of others, then those unbelievers will take the punishment eternally on their own. For those who do believe Jesus Christ satisfied God’s eternal justice by taking the eternal punishment in the place of others on the cross, then those believers do not take the eternal punishment on their own, because The Christ did it for them.

        The violation of the third commandment is an irreverence of God and HIs way, most especially the irreverence of rejecting the accomplished work of God Himself united to a human nature in the
        Person of Jesus. The Person and work of Jesus was not in vain, but He did accomplish the work of salvation He set out to do from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). To love God is to obey His third commandment and revere all that God had accomplished in His own Name.

        • I anticipated opposition from the resident doctrine-ologist ..

          His name is not Jesus and you know that .. you cant be that stupid .. but you are not interested in the truth .. you are only interested in control .. manipulating what people think and believe with your self-righteous sense of superiority imposing your doctrine .. correcting others as though you were the authority on what anyone is permitted to read, think or believe .. just who in hell do you think you are ??

          I know who you are .. NIKOS-LAOS-TON
          The Greek word for Nicolaitans (Strong’s Concordance Number #G3531) found in Revelation is actually three words combined. As a proper noun, it TRANSFERS, but is not translated, into English. The three Greek words used are Nikos, Laos and Ton.

          The first Greek part of the English word Nicolaitans is NIKOS. We use the English equivalents instead of the Greek letters, as we shall also of the other two. Nikos is defined as “a conquest, victory, triumph, the conquered and by implication, those who are dominate over the defeated.” Another transferred name in which this word is used is Nicopolis. It is composed of Niko, which means conquest, and polis, which means city. Nicopolis therefore means the city of conquest, or city of victory.

          The middle part of the word Nicolaitans, in the Greek is LAOS. This word means people. It also is in NICOLAS, which transfers and composes into ‘Nikos-laos.’ This means one who is “victorious over the people,” the letter “s” being in both words the nominative case ending, which is retained only at the end of the word to denote the case, while “a” short and “o” short are contracted into “a” long. A still further transferred use of LAOS is found in the name LaoSdiceans (Strong’s Concordance Number #G2994), compounded with DIKE or DICE.

          The last part of the word in question is TON. It is contracted into a long “a,” thus making the word TAN which is the genitive case plural in all the genders of the definite article ‘the.’ We therefore have, without the legal Greek construction, the English hyphenated word NIKOS-LAOS-TON, but which, with its lawful contractions, becomes the English translation found in Revelation.

          Real world meaning
          In its ecclesiastical setting, Nicolaitans means the bishops and prelates of the Church have gained a triumphal victory or conquest over the LAITON, the laity. Members are compelled and forced to submit to the arbitrary dominion of men who have become that thing which God hates.

          http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/why-does-god-hate-practices-of-the-nicolaitans.html

          God only knows the number of people abused by hypocrites like you when you are loose in own environment dominating sincere people searching for the truth .. I know your game very well and I will not engage in debate with you as I have rebuked you previously under similar circumstances .. what you think or believe is completely irrelevant ..

          But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, arguments, and quarrels about the Law, because these things are pointless and worthless. 10Reject a divisive man after a first and second admonition, 11knowing that such a man is corrupt and sinful; he is self-condemned Titus 3:9-11

          • rev17, “I anticipated opposition from the resident doctrine-ologist ..”

            Haha! Of course I provide my opinion in these here parts from time to time. 🙂

            rev17, “His name is not Jesus and you know that .. you cant be that stupid .. but you are not interested in the truth .. you are only interested in control .. manipulating what people think and believe with your self-righteous sense of superiority imposing your doctrine .. correcting others as though you were the authority on what anyone is permitted to read, think or believe .. just who in hell do you think you are ??”

            Same could be said of you. So nothing there.

            rev17, “God only knows the number of people abused by hypocrites like you when you are loose in own environment dominating sincere people searching for the truth .. ”

            Same could be said of you. So again, nothing of substance.

            rev17, “But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, arguments, and quarrels about the Law, because these things are pointless and worthless. 10Reject a divisive man after a first and second admonition, 11knowing that such a man is corrupt and sinful; he is self-condemned Titus 3:9-11”

            haha! 🙂 So funny when you’re angry rev17, but I do not approve of your behavior. Children pout when they do not get their way; they cry and blame others for their own irresponsibility. They are quirky that way, but some adults have not fully matured in certain ways of their life. I know I have much to learn and look forward to maturing even more in certain parts of my life. I would love to be an old man someday who respectfully aged.

            Here’s the thing rev17: I do not have to follow your cultish air of superiority and false sense of deserving to be put on a pedestal by others. I do not agree with you, and it puts you off, oh well. No need to slam the keyboard of your computer (a little humor). I do not bow the knee to rev17; I actually have my own opinion would you look at that, yeah!

            Here’s what I do: I continue to be a witness of the God of Scripture and share the loving gospel of the LORD Jesus. There are various opinions on the blog rev17, maybe you should have realized that by now? I know nobody should follow my ways and understanding, for my own effort is not to follow my own ways and understanding; instead, I obey the true and living God and all of His ways and understanding as revealed in Scripture.

            This might help you rev17: Everybody has presuppositions on what they base their interpretations. I just so happen to base my understanding not on my understanding, but instead I interpret and understand in accord with Scripture. There is a perfect message in Scripture, because God is perfect, not man. The perfect, without sin Jesus Christ and all that He did can not be corrupted, for by definition He is sinless and perfect, not man. I know I am not perfect, but I know Christ and His incorruptible message of His accomplished work of salvation is certain and true.

            He died for my sins and absolved my guilt on the cross. By faith, I trust in the accomplished work of Jesus and what He did for me and others. I know I am a sinner, because pride is to believe one may save their own self. I know I can not save my own self; I know I depend on God to save me. I am weak and beggarly; He is my life and strength. Sharing the gospel might just be the highest form of love we may share with other people, but even that is not a love that originates in me. The gospel is a love that God has for people. I desire and sincerely have a love for others to know Jesus, the one and only unique God-man, who died on the cross and rose three days later.

            LORD bless

            • And that gives you authority to judge and falsely accuse me of blasphemy .. inflict guilt and condemnation then feign false humility in the process .. when you are the one who denies the true Name .. you are truly pathetic in that you actually take pleasure in this .. it is clear you enjoy raping the hearts and minds of vulnerable people .. no doubt you will respond with more of your obsessive religious syphilis but I have no interest in contracting your repulsive disease .. whose symptoms cause me to suspect you have a history of abuse .. Im just not sure of your personality disorder or if you are demon possessed as a result but unquestionably no longer worthy of comment

              Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
              Or you will also be like him.
              5 Answer a fool as his folly deserves,
              That he not be wise in his own eyes.

              Some my think my words too harsh .. but my family lived under the curse of a spiritual rapist like you and at my sisters funeral I looked into his eyes and knew she was better off .. it is her six children that suffer the consequences .. I will readily admit the Messiah Yahshua died in your place and forgives you .. but I am equally certain you will prefer the grave when your victims are presented before you .. forgiveness does not relieve you of consequences

              The links are not for you .. I am fully aware there is no hope for you

              What is Spiritual Abuse
              http://www.healingspiritualabuse.com/what-is-spiritual-abuse/

              Toxic People: Narcissists in Ministry
              http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2013/03/toxic-people-narcissists-in-ministry/

              • “The links are not for you .. I am fully aware there is no hope for you”

                There is hope for you rev17. As baseless as your claims may be. The hope is Jesus Christ. Look to Him.

                LORD bless

  29. Rev:
    ““Although they may have been pure bloodline descendants of Abraham Issac and Jacob/Israel their bloodline was now irrelevant”
    “now anyone who believes in the Messiah is CHOSEN .. bloodlines and genealogy are no longer relevant””

    which part exactly do you quote from the Rev. 17? thanks:

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+17&version=KJV

    Revelation 17 King James Version (KJV)

    “17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

    2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

    3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

    4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

    5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

    6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

    7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

    8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

    10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

    11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

    12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

    14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

    15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

    16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

    18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.”

    • a slight miscommunication Maria .. I was not quoting scripture .. I was quoting myself .. lol

      • oh!…I see…you know I respect you a lot, Rev, but I would like to see some formal basis on which you made your conclusions.

        the point is, a specialist in the primitive christianity, a spanish university professor I’m following (pity his lectures, full with data & search for truth are only in Spanish) reads the NT (the basis, strictly what arose until 180 a.d., not the later christian theology that was due to “fabrication” during the next 2 to 8 centuries) as a sequel of the OT and the NT’s God the same YHWH with his chosen – israelites! – people…Paul of Tarsus (St.Paul) was a hebrew who preached to hebrews & invited the gentiles to follow Jesus/Yeshua/Isús (in greek & slavic languages) and so posed the basis of an expansion of that jewish/hebrew sect that followed the teachings of Jesus…the authors of the four Gospels (written 50 to 80 a.d) were either fervent jews/hebrews.

        • “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matt 3

          “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. John 14

          I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. 14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you John 16

          As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. 1 John 2

        • maria, “the point is, a specialist in the primitive christianity, a spanish university professor I’m following.”

          Interesting. I admire your effort to learn from others who may have the time and field to dedicate more to certain topics than we may due to our own specializations.

          For canon and very early church history (1st and 2nd century), I mainly have read Pastor and Professor Michael Kruger. I do not go on his website that often, but have read good articles there. I have read maybe a couple of his academic writings, but mainly I have read his books. I read his books “The Canon Revisited” and “The Question of Canon”. I am currently reading in my private devotional time alongside praying, reading Scripture, and some other devotional books, his editorial work “A Biblical Theological Introduction to the New Testament”. I have his “Christianity at the Crossroads” (copyright 2017), which covers 2nd century Christianity, but have only read it in parts; it is a really interesting book. I am holding off on reading its’ entire until after I complete some other books first.

          https://www.michaeljkruger.com/

        • I enjoyed his extremely brief overview on the topic of canon:

  30. I anticipated opposition from the resident doctrine-ologist ..

    His name is not Jesus and you know that .. you cant be that stupid .. but you are not interested in the truth .. you are only interested in control .. manipulating what people think and believe with your self-righteous sense of superiority imposing your doctrine .. correcting others as though you were the authority on what anyone is permitted to read, think or believe .. just who in hell do you think you are ??

    I know who you are .. NIKOS-LAOS-TON

    The Greek word for Nicolaitans (Strong’s Concordance Number #G3531) found in Revelation is actually three words combined. As a proper noun, it TRANSFERS, but is not translated, into English. The three Greek words used are Nikos, Laos and Ton.
    The first Greek part of the English word Nicolaitans is NIKOS. We use the English equivalents instead of the Greek letters, as we shall also of the other two. Nikos is defined as “a conquest, victory, triumph, the conquered and by implication, those who are dominate over the defeated.” Another transferred name in which this word is used is Nicopolis. It is composed of Niko, which means conquest, and polis, which means city. Nicopolis therefore means the city of conquest, or city of victory.

    The middle part of the word Nicolaitans, in the Greek is LAOS. This word means people. It also is in NICOLAS, which transfers and composes into ‘Nikos-laos.’ This means one who is “victorious over the people,” the letter “s” being in both words the nominative case ending, which is retained only at the end of the word to denote the case, while “a” short and “o” short are contracted into “a” long. A still further transferred use of LAOS is found in the name LaoSdiceans (Strong’s Concordance Number #G2994), compounded with DIKE or DICE.

    The last part of the word in question is TON. It is contracted into a long “a,” thus making the word TAN which is the genitive case plural in all the genders of the definite article ‘the.’ We therefore have, without the legal Greek construction, the English hyphenated word NIKOS-LAOS-TON, but which, with its lawful contractions, becomes the English translation found in Revelation.

    Real world meaning
    In its ecclesiastical setting, Nicolaitans means the bishops and prelates of the Church have gained a triumphal victory or conquest over the LAITON, the laity. Members are compelled and forced to submit to the arbitrary dominion of men who have become that thing which God hates.

    http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/why-does-god-hate-practices-of-the-nicolaitans.html

    God only knows the number of people abused by hypocrites like you when you are loose in own environment dominating sincere people searching for the truth .. I know your game very well and I will not engage in debate with you as I have rebuked you previously under similar circumstances .. what you think or believe is completely irrelevant ..

    9But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, arguments, and quarrels about the Law, because these things are pointless and worthless. 10Reject a divisive man after a first and second admonition, 11knowing that such a man is corrupt and sinful; he is self-condemned Titus 3:9-11

  31. maria
    “Intrigued & Rev:
    excuse me, but I can’t follow you both…could you try to make an easier scheme or something of who is deceiving who doing what for what purpose…sorry, but I got confused…”

    THIS is your divine ‘spark’ maria, it’s within If you’re searching for the truth the Father will find you. HE WILL GUIDE YOU maria, not church doctrines explained by scholars and scribes, or men telling you their interpretations according to the belief of ‘their’ religion – as you search for the truth, you will be able to discern the lies of men who use the Father as a tool of FEAR to control your mind, you will SEE the lies everywhere and who these men claiming to be godly have fallen into the hands of, and the truth will set you free!

    Proverbs 8:17

    “I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me

    Jeremiah 29:13

    ‘You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.

    from Rev’s post
    13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. 14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you John 16

    As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. 1 John 2

    • intriguedbyr, “not church doctrines explained by scholars and scribes, or men telling you their interpretations according to the belief of ‘their’ religion”

      But that is what you did intriguedbyr when you wrote your post. You explained it in accord with how you understand. It is “your doctrine”.

      • The bible contains the history of the world, and the teachings of Christ. Nowhere do I see Christ telling us to abide by the doctrines of ‘men’ who are motivated by self interest. He told his disciples to spread the good news. We all create your own beliefs based on how we interpret them, just as we are all able to study or read scripture. ‘My doctrine’ as you say, has no agenda, but I can’t say the same for man made religious organizations who work with political groups and corporations who want to control us. I’m not that interested in preaching to others, I’m more interested in helping them see the world for what it is and who controls the narrative. The journey to find truth is theirs. I don’t endorse any religious group, yet believe the bible to be a valuable tool as well as many other writings that are not in the bible. When I was young, I never had any ‘fear’ of the Lord. NONE! While I studied with other religions, belonged to their churches, etc. what I found was this incredible amount of fear and judgement. An arrogance beyond belief in some, including the hierarchy of the pulpit, even more so among some of the missionaries. After years of looking for the true religion, what I found is – there is NO TRUE RELIGION that is created by men. If you are searching for God, you will find him and be led by his spirit to the truth, which is not all that complicated as the scribes and the scholars like to make it. Love the Lord – Love one another, in doing both, you can really do no harm to others. None of us are perfect, but there are far too many ‘churches’ and ‘religions’ who are evil to the core! We each get to pick which road we want to travel, and while I enjoy different perspectives and learn much from people who also are searching for truth, when everything is said and done, hopefully I am wise enough to know the difference between God’s truth and the Luciferian Lies, but I’m going to let the spirit of truth guide me through discernment and not doublespeaking men.

        • Well you should not follow men and only God. My point, which you seem to have also said yourself, is we are taught. We learn from others. We interpret the world based on what we think to the be the Truth. The thing is all those scholars and evil people think the same way intrigued. They talk about love and being lead by the spirit of truth. Everybody is coming to a Truth and not fully there because we are not The Truth who is God. There are people who come along and say they are telling a truth from God. Your posts, my posts, rev17, and maria, and many others in the world.

          For me, it simply comes down on matters of Truth to who Jesus is and what He did. Others have their own interpretation of course. But everybody settles on something as their Anchor to guide them into a truth, like you said, “I’m going to let the spirit of truth guide me.” You are not saying anything any different than many other people. Even the Pope says that kind of stuff is my point. That is partly why I believe man will not save himself. To believe and know God Himself saved a people by His blood on the cross is the only different history out there. All other ways are the same, because they say “I can do it”. The only other option in the world is “Christ did it”. I believe in Christ, not man.

          btw, I am not saying you disagree or are saying anything different than what I said. I just felt like sharing.

  32. I just want to say, I have a lot of respect for Rev17’s input at FTM, I’ve learned a great deal from him. We’ve all learned from each other, shared our thoughts, opinions and our own beliefs, asked questions, posted links etc. and never had to defend them before or talk down to each other because we didn’t agree. Thanks Rev17.

    • Well, I disagree with Rev17. It does not mean he is not allowed to make comments or anything; as if I had the power, haha! Every once in a while I enjoy comparing where I differ with him. He does not take it well when others disagree with him. I do not expect him to have to comment on my comments or anything like that. I do not expect anything from him. If I want to share where I differ from him, you, or anybody, I find nothing wrong with demonstrating my own understanding from time to time. I want to encourage rev17 to try to engage with others and be a little more thoughtful every once and awhile. It might be helpful, but if he does not want to, that is fine also. We like to share each others interests. You may find his interests – interesting. I usually do not, but I do not think there is a “agree with rev17 rule anywhere” in order to make the world a better place, and we should not expect such a rule from each other either. He does not like the Name Jesus Christ, but just because he does not like it, does not mean I am not allowed to love it. He is being a bit hyperbole about things, but sometimes people are like. People are people, eh.

      LORD bless

      • as long as all are given due respect and consideration i prefer to let things roll and not stop conversations..we are all from different backgrounds, countries and upbringings..discussing things online can be difficult as often what somebody is trying to say or confer doesnt always come across the way they want it to..i think its great that so many differing views can brought to the table..i love passion in a belief..its not for me to judge if its “wrong or right”..its just part of working our way through the ether..thanks to rev int maria and adirondack..you are marvelous posters on this thread in your own unique ways!

      • That’s a bit of a twist adirondack, Rev never said he didn’t like the name Jesus Christ, he said they changed his name and person – identity theft.

        “The Jewish Messiah from Nazareth, Israel became the victim of history’s greatest”Identity Theft”, bringing about a change of His Name and Person, so as to render Him and His Atoning Work, if it were possible, powerless and purposeless. The brains behind this masterful conspiracy of unprecedented deception was [and is] heaven’s adversary, the spirit personality we know as Satan. The muscle for this ignominious project was the powerful Roman Empire. “

        • It is not a “bit of a twist”.
          Quotes of rev17 to me:
          rev17, ““His name is not Jesus and you know that .. you cant be that stupid.”
          rev17, “when you are the one who denies the true Name .. you are truly pathetic.”
          rev17, “Regardless of opposition I will continue to use the authentic names .. Yahweh Yahshua Yahudim .. to do otherwise is to assist in the deception”
          rev17, ” I now consider the name Jesus and Jew both to be illegal false identities”

        • intriguedbyr, “he said they changed his name and person – identity theft.”

          I get that intriguedbyr. Nobody is denying that rev17 is making that claim. I disagree with his doctrine. I get it he does not like the word “doctrine” either, but I do.

          If I use the name Jesus, Jew, or LORD, it does not necessarily follow that I am deceiving. There are other ways to think about the issue. I know there are people who would use Jesus or Yahshua in order to deceive, but it does not follow that “all” who use the Name Jesus are deceiving. Rev17 has mentioned Bauer before, I believe he may have quoted him even. I already could tell he was using Bauer’s thesis and he readily uses other facets of the German Liberal Theology, which dates back to the 18th century, at times, too. Bauer’s thesis has had a recent surge of interest, though he originally developed it in the early 20th century, for that is when he was alive.

          Maria uses Bauer’s thesis as well at times, but her and rev17 disagree at times, also. So just because people use his doctrine, does not mean they agree with each other or all of Bauer’s thesis. There are various points and doctrines we pick up from people and apply to our own understanding from time to time. The first video below leads into the second, but it is the second video that gives an overview of who Bauer is and what his doctrine is (the Bauer thesis). It is an overview of Bauer and his thesis given by two people in the video who differ from Bauer and his thesis. So I am not saying read Bauer for yourself if you feel more comfortable reading him and deciding for yourself.

          For the sake of argument, I have no problem if maria or rev17 came up with the same ideas Bauer did and find the need to make it clear they are not getting their understandings from the Bauer thesis. Though Bauer propagated his ideas and had people who used them before both maria and rev17 were born, it also does not necessarily follow that maria and rev17 either read or use Bauer’s thesis as an explicit source. If maria and rev17 think they came up with similar notions of Bauer’s thesis without his thesis, I do not think that takes away from my general assertion, which is if one understands the Bauer thesis, then it will help one understand what maria and rev17 are communicating. I disagree with Bauer’s thesis, but I find it helpful to understand what it is I disagree with.

          • That “Bauer’s thesis” – I didn’t know the original author, thanks – is a very common position amongst the non-theological but strictly historical academia – the researchers who are guided by tangible historical&linguistic criteria and not the religiously-dogmatical ones.

            “Through studies of historical records Bauer concluded that what came to be known as orthodoxy was just one of numerous forms of Christianity in the early centuries. It was the eventual form of Christianity practiced in the 4th century that influenced the development of orthodoxy[3] and acquired the majority of converts over time. This was largely due to the conversion to Christianity of the Roman Emperor Constantine I and consequently the greater resources available to the Christians in the eastern Roman empire capital he established (Constantinople). Practitioners of what became orthodoxy then rewrote the history of the conflict making it appear that this view had always been the majority one. Writings in support of other views were systematically destroyed.”
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Bauer

            today as 500 or 1800 years ago, imo.

            • I found it helpful to know the broader conversation in canon theology. The Bauer thesis is what some in academia go to when it comes to understanding the canon. It is helpful to be up to date on the broader conversation to understand what continues to be a viable argument about canon and which does not. Kruger’s position, which is not just his own, is solid to me. Though the Bauer thesis does continue to bring up questions that need answers. It is also important to know the Bauer thesis and Kruger’s understanding are not the only two in the conversation in academia. The Roman Catholic view of canon is still continually being used by some.

              I would place the “victors”, to use your pictorial teaching, is the Roman Catholic view and arguably the Bauer thesis has gained a significant following, too. I will explain why I think it is the Bauer thesis which has been used by the “victors”: The U.S. historically is anti-RC. The victors in the U.S. are Protestant churches which have fallen away from their historical roots, which happened largely in the19th century, but even more so by the mid-20th century. Yet even at the signing of the U.S. Constitution there were churches who were against the new Constitution, because the new legal document at the time (the US Constitution) accepted the new teachings of secularism which came out of the Enlightenment Period. The teachings of John Locke are the main foundation of the U.S. Constitution, and Immanuel Kant in Germany solidified the academic teachings of secularism, which became known in the 18th and 19th century Liberal Theology. It originated in Germany in academia and spread into the churches. It became the dominate cultural view in Europe first, then it took a bit longer to do so in America (debates between B.B. Warfield and Charles Briggs for example), and this same cultural view is gaining domination globally.

              Secularism takes on the form of what it has invaded. It will be distinctly understood to be different by some, but secularism has a way of using the extant culture to change the culture and eventually the culture hits a critical moment when, especially by those who study history and I would add primarily theology, the culture will be seen to be drastically different than it once was. The U.S. was founded by Protestant and not Roman Catholic ideals, but those same Protestant ideals, even at the founding of the U.S., were already being seen as corrupted. There were already alter motives being played out from the very foundation of the U.S.

              The Bauer thesis is explicitly rooted in the Liberal Theology that started in academia in Germany in the 18th century. To understand the philosophy of Immanuel Kant is to understand the Bauer thesis even more.

              Now I only bring that up as a helpful way to research historic origins and what academia itself instructs on its’ historic roots and where certain ideas originated not only being taught in the classroom, but in order to influence the culture.

              For me, I think it will be helpful if I read Bauer himself and read Kruger’s book that specifically addresses Bauer (the book in the video). It sounds like Bauer made some claims about history, at least from watching the videos, that when the history was researched his claims had no historic evidence to validate some of what Bauer had postulated. To understand what is taking place in the conversation by those who have the time and background to study some of the historic evidence first-hand, like Kruger who handles the old historic documents and studies them first-hand is helpful. There are others who do the same that hold to Bauer’s thesis, too. To compare what they have learned and the different view points that have developed out of the broad conversation may be instructive for all of us. There are things that people who hold to the Bauer thesis and to what Kruger writes that have already concluded and studied, that we would only be reinventing the wheel if we ignored them (on all sides), as you may well know.

              • the victors:

                not just the RCC, BUT:
                …the official christian dogmas, both of the RCC, all Luther’s descending chr. movements & the Orthodox churches – all&each one of those result of the Nicean&later Councils (=instutionalised Pauline christianity)
                …among the losers: a. the gnostics& b.other religious believes, including monotheist ones, whipped out by the proclation of the christianity the official religion in the late Roman empire (380 a.d.)

                Bauer&Kruger:

                I don’t know any of them. I do try to read contemporary (secular) scholars (with religious upbringing or not), linguists&historics who study the origins of christianity with the scientific method of scrutinising sources, historical context, etc, etc.

                • A lot of your ideas maria, probably from your readings, but I am not discounting your own unique ideas, are in Bauer’s thesis. His thesis is not completely original, because he developed his understanding based on those before him, but his thesis was propagated in academia around the world. Your ideas being the same as his, at points, is probably due to your reading of academia, or wherever else you may, that has been influenced by his thesis. Not that, that has to be a bad thing. I was just pointing out an observation of your ideas, and knowing how influential Bauer’s thesis has been in academia, which academia is a main mechanism of cultural influence. I enjoy academic research and findings myself, too. Though I am open about my disagreement of Bauer’s thesis, but I probably should pick up one of his books, at least, to understand better what is happening in the culture since his thesis has influenced culture.

  33. haha! It is spiritual abuse to disagree with Rev17. haha! Yes, I disagree with you Rev17. 🙂

    Adirondack you really enjoy this .. don’t you .. you are the center of attention .. it is so perverted

    I know you are sincere and really believe you serving God .. but something is amiss

    I was involved in a number of very active evangelical churches for 18 years until one day my eyes were opened and I realized it was all a performance .. I ‘came out of her’ and never returned .. about a year later the wife of the pastor called me for help with a serious family crisis .. involving their teenage son threatening his father with a knife to his throat .. my intervention helped them survive as a family .. my good friend resigned as pastor realizing he needed to undo the damage he caused by his control and manipulation .. we have maintained a deep personal relationship since and have had many discussions concerning the failure of those who serve within the church .. my friends difficulty is struggling to overcome the extent of the damage he now is aware of and the difficulty of reconciling his personal relationship with God .. he since suffered a stroke is unable to communicate

    it has been 28 years since I ‘came out of her’ .. I have another personal friend former pastor who ‘came out of her’ three years ago .. he has shared with me the number of friends and pastors no longer in ministry .. they of course are considered the ‘fallen away’ .. his best friend is National Director of an evangelical denomination with 2400 churches in 60 countries .. with whom he still meets .. on a recent visit his National Director friend informed him that he had just returned from the Vatican and they plan to build 700 new churches .. my friend was in shock he couldn’t believe what he was hearing .. saying this is last person he could ever imagine meeting with the pope and thought he was joking until he saw the pictures .. (this has not been made public) my friend has planned another visit in two weeks but wants to see me first to prepare for a confrontation .. I have no pretentions he can accomplish anything but simply to maintain his friendship .. so the plan is just keep building new churches and the broken and wounded are never an issue.

    In my own life I never aspired to ministry because I witnessed the destruction of my own family at the hands of my sister’s husband who ministered under David Wilkerson .. caught in adultery he and my sister were counseled by David Wilkerson ‘to return to the pulpit’ .. so the sins of pastors are covered up .. but pointing out the sin of others is the tool used to manipulate and control .. lack of faith in God is another tool used very effectively to cause serious damage .. my nephew’s wife was challenged to put her faith in God rather than call an ambulance when she was having difficulty giving birth .. the baby was born with serious brain damage .. my nephew and his wife courageously cared for that child for 12 years .. my sisters six children fled to different states unable to face the shame and abuse they suffered for years .. we gathered for my sisters funeral in 2004 the pain is indescribable .. my sister’s husband still active in ministry and adultery had no remorse whatsoever, never acknowledging responsibility for his abuse .. and married again six months later to the woman he was currently having an affair with .. such is the real fruit of Wilkerson’s ministry

    How is this possible that those ordained and qualified by the church to hold positions of leadership yet suffer from all sorts of personality disorders are permitted to continue abusing people ?? They have a dual nature capable of subtle transformation between good and evil .. a protective wall surrounds the hierarchy .. they are immune from accusation .. a code of silence exists among them ..

    My conclusion is the church is an institution for the insane

    Adirondack I have walked firmly through many trials in my faith for 46 years 28 of those without a church so I have no need of a lecture from you ..

    but when your laughter turns to tears you may have something of value to say for I am certain you have an appointment with a personal crisis .. the magnitude of which you cannot now comprehend .. where your ‘faith’ will be tried by fire .. my sincere prayer is for your survival ..

    but I know your haughty spirit will dismiss the notion that your survival could be in question .. but its not about you .. its about those who have suffered at the hands of those like you and that you would have your eyes opened to the reality and nature of spiritual abuse .. there are so many victims .. they are not ‘fallen away’ they are thrown away having life and faith drained out of them by a narcissistic spirit .. they are in desperate need of compassion and healing .. they are the lost sheep of the House of Israel .. lost in the wilderness searching for the heart of the Father .. would that you had the understanding and compassion .. your potential would be greatly employed

    I understand your burden is to ‘save souls’ .. then what .. throw them to the lions ?

    Would that you had a burden for ‘broken souls’ but that can only come when your own soul is broken

    But my suspicion is you will continue to mock me, exposing the immaturity and potential for evil hidden behind your Christian mask ..

    • davey wilkerson eh?

      have you ever read the book run baby run by nicky cruz?..it was a book i read at about 12..it fascinated me..the mau maus etc..wilkerson is in it..

      sadly in my experiences over the years i have seen some charismatics and evangelicals become very legalistic in their literal interpretations of bible text..this creates the sorts of pressure you wrote about above..performance based Christianity?

      my wife was in a very legalistic christian cult for 10 years before i met her..it is something i have delved into..

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicky_Cruz

    • “Adirondack you really enjoy this .. don’t you .. you are the center of attention .. it is so perverted
      I know you are sincere and really believe you serving God .. but something is amiss”

      same could be said of you rev17, so continuing to write nothing of substance only exacerbates the situation.

      Not all churches are bad or lions rev17. You had bad experiences, which obviously make dramatic your understanding of churches, amongst other things, but bad churches are not always the case. To know the doctrine of Jesus Christ is not “stupid”, “deceiving”, and “illegal” either. Maybe it might help to step back and think if you are being just like the bad people you met at those churches and spiritually abusing others? It might be a helpful exercise to consider. You laid the same questions before me, and I think it is only fair that you do the same.

      LORD bless

  34. Intriguedbyr and seek .. I am deeply grateful for your comments of support and encouragement .. to be honest I considered exiting FTM .. as I will not allow Adirondack to drain me of my time and energy because I am very familiar with the personality type capable of relentless ambition to dominate .. such ambition is what drives people from the church ..

    my decision to share the personal experiences above is not for his sake but for the sake of others with similar experience who may hesitate to comment for fear of being criticized .. its understandable as many people are offended by the overt religious propaganda .. there are many vulnerable people who have been seriously injured by such people and struggle for years contemplating suicide .. the brainwashed propagandists may be sincere in their effort to ‘save souls’ but blindly do more harm than good and often are master’s of deception, manifesting a Christ-like persona stroking their prey with predatory compassion then draining every ounce of emotional and spiritual energy from their victims ..

    I am not a psychologist but I have a lot of experience working with victims of abuse for years .. alcoholics drug addicts and ‘recovering Christians’ so I recognize the traits of an abuser .. it was tempting to just consider Adirondack an idiot but I know he is very intelligent in many respects .. as are true psychopaths but lack emotional intelligence .. so far from being an idiot but potentially dangerous

    God forgives sin but the consequences are inevitable .. visited upon the deceiver and his descendants ..

    Just as Jacob deceived his father to gain the blessing so he also was deceived by Laban to gain his wife .. he spent 20 years as a slave for Laban .. his son’s in turn were enslaved in Egypt then by the Assyrians then by the Babylonians .. this demonstrates the widespread effect of abuse .. it continues for generations .. it is the heartbreaking misery of the survivors .. with which I am all too familiar

    • thanks rev..also remember that there are dozens each day who read on here but dont comment..whilst it can seem like a small echo chamber here you may also be helping/guiding a lot of others with your comments and you will never know it..that goes for all posters..you would be surprised to know how far the reach goes..

  35. psy.cho.paths, malevolence, and predation

  36. Thanks for sharing that Rev. I’m truly sorry that you and your family have suffered like that.

    I don’t know of anything worse than using the Father as a weapon for personal gain and spiritual damage to people. Shaken faith and the feeling of being lost, questioning everything you believed in with all your heart is a powerful and painful attack on one’s psyche, as well as the ingrained guilt one feels for taking that big step to finally ‘get out’, but eventually, it feels great to be free.

    I have no regrets from ‘coming out of her either’, and the people I had so much respect for who were both in our family and in the ministry, I now see in a different, but more truthful and realistic light. While I love them still, I can’t help but pity them as well. They have no idea how arrogant and callous they are. They’ve convinced themselves they are holier than those whose eyes have been opened and see their institutions for what they really are – facilitators of fear, division, murder and enslavement of our minds. I always find it ironic when they attack you personally for questioning the motives of the church, as if leaving an institution takes away one’s belief and faith.

    When my brother was dying of brain cancer, one of my own family members, an aunt, had the audacity to say that it’s a shame, but you know, God wouldn’t be punishing him like that unless he did something bad. My brother was 38 year old, and a wonderful quiet, man, kind, generous and loving. He would do anything for anyone.
    It was then that I realized how pompous and out of touch people like her are. Ridiculously, at least 15 years went by after his death, when my aunt, who was well into her early 90’s, had some heart problems and then early dementia, my cousins, the ‘ministers’, refused to acknowledge her disease. Instead of facing the ‘shame’ of her being a ‘sinner’, they just said she was getting tired and older and soon the Lord would bring her home because her mission on earth was complete !

    They refuse to give up this notion that illness and disease is punishment reserved for ‘bad sinners’ only.

    I’m glad you’re not leaving FTM, you are a wealth of information, a kindred spirit, and a very wise man. You would be greatly missed here. Seek is right, you have no idea how much your input affects others.
    After all, Follow the Money came about as a search for truth…not deception – we like to expose those things. 🙂

    • Int. I’m at a loss for words ..

      I can only say writing my thoughts and feelings today was a difficult experience as I recalled everything .. the pain is real .. I am sure you experienced the same and I want to thank you for your courage .. our purpose is to bear one another’s burdens .. I’m not ashamed of the tears .. they are tears of healing .. I cant lose myself in the pain so my thoughts always return to the day my life changed forever .. I used to think it was a vison but I understand now the spiritual dimension is not constrained by time or space, so that in reality I stood before the cross and witnessed His suffering .. His face covered with blood His eyes pleading with me to come .. the words of Peter penetrated my heart ..

      Let us give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! Because of his great mercy he gave us new life by raising Jesus Christ from death.

      6 Be glad about this, even though it may now be necessary for you to be sad for a while because of the many kinds of trials you suffer. 7 Their purpose is to prove that your faith is genuine. Even gold, which can be destroyed, is tested by fire; and so your faith, which is much more precious than gold, must also be tested, so that it may endure.

      Then you will receive praise and glory and honor on the Day when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 You love him, although you have not seen him, and you believe in him, although you do not now see him. So you rejoice with a great and glorious joy which words cannot express, 9 because you are receiving the salvation of your souls, which is the purpose of your faith in him.

      the Light was incredible .. brilliant yet not blinding .. the sense of peace beyond comprehension .. and remains with me even now

      so regardless of the difficulty and the pain I welcome the Refiners Fire

      • Your humbleness Rev is a sign of your wisdom and the beauty of your heart.

        • Thank you .. although that’s subject to change when I’m challenged and is proof its not really me .. its Him

        • Those who believe they are good and pride themselves in their own righteousness are self-deceived ..

          But Yahshua said to him, Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One, YAHWEH.

          As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;

          It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who is afraid to swear. 3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Ecc 9

          The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

          the truth is .. the evil we abhor in others is resident in our own hearts and we fool ourselves if we think we are not capable of unimaginable evil and it is only the mercy and grace of a loving God that’s restrains us from evil .. the desire of His heart is to forgive us and have compassion on us and as a real Father correct us and discipline us when necessary .. therefore although forgiven the consequences of sin is not canceled ..

          Then Yahweh passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “Yahweh, Yahweh, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”

          it is one thing to believe you are ‘saved’ and your sins have been forgiven but that is only the beginning of the process .. sin involves offending other people and forgiveness requires seeking out those people and making amends by humbling yourself and seeking their forgiveness that they may be healed and made whole .. its a matter of accepting responsibility for the pain you have caused another person.

          When I was 17 my father told me if you cant live by my rules .. leave .. I left .. I was 22 when my heavenly Father forgave me and I knew in my heart I needed to return to my fathers house and make amends .. we hadn’t talked since the day I left .. we spent one year without speaking a word to each other then one day he said .. “What happened to you ? You are not the same person” .. I told him about my experience with the Messiah .. we embraced and wept together .. we forgave each other.. my father bought a bible .. we went to meetings together .. we became best friends .. we were inseparable ..
          10 years later my father had pancreatic cancer .. my family unable to face reality did not want him to know he only had 6 months to live .. he was told he was getting better but complained to me he did not believe them .. as youngest I waited 2 weeks and took the responsibility and told him the truth .. he was overjoyed knowing where he was going .. then he began crying for my sister to come ..
          my sister and her preacher husband had separated from my family because they were anti-Catholic she had not spoken to my father for 10 years but she was a ‘good’ Christian praised and respected as a virtuous woman of God in her church .. I called her and told her my father was dying and was begging for her to come .. she said .. “is he still catholic?” .. I hung up the phone .. she never came to see him .. 20 years later she died in a horrific car accident .. no one knows the evil lurking in the hearts of the self-righteous when they put on their performance.

          The evil of him that hides hatred in his heart will be revealed in the assembly. Proverbs 26

          My brother in laws adultery was eventually exposed in the church and in the local paper .. he now ministers in Britain

          Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. Eph 5

          • thanks for sharing, Rev…you’ve passed through hard&bitter times in your life…I can understand where your feelings about the RCC come from…anyway, the generalisations are not good in any case…there are a lot of good people who are catholic.

    • We all have had problems and pains. More than two have shared them here of recent in the comments. I am not alone in going through sufferings and pains, not only in the church but by people outside the church. It is not unusual to experience pain and hardships, for the world is fallen and the hope is in the new creation where sin, suffering, and death will be no more. I would be careful in slandering good people who are the church. It would be unhelpful to group good and decent people into one category with all the bad people in the world just because they worship God in a church. Nobody has a monopoly on pain in this world. There are some really wonderful people who are in the church, and one makes them all out to be bad just because they use the word “Jesus” or attend church, etc. it definitely is a good time when one does that to reflect on ones own character before making the effort to hurt others and end up being the very kind of people one originally abhorred. It is a dangerous path to walk, and only repeats the cycle of suffering by bringing up horrible memories that maybe have not been dealt with properly and wholly. This is why I find it good and well to remember to fix our eyes on Christ (Hebrews 12:2).

      LORD bless

  37. Pope Benedict is Preparing for Death

    http://dailypost.ng/2018/02/07/im-preparing-death-pope-benedict-xvi/

  38. …too many posts to up-date with here…hope I could do that soon…meanwhile, cheers to all the participants in this thread & seek!…

    and a thought for intrigued (the last post I’ve read so far):
    int.:”The bible contains (1) the history of the world, and (2) the teachings of Christ”
    really? how can we be so sure about one/the other/both? and don’t accept the possibility that this could be an imposed social-engendering-type dogma we’ve been educated into as part of the western civilisation centered culture that dominated the world for the past few hundred years?
    Yeshua was a jew/hebrew, and 2000 years ago Israel, its religious believes on YHWH included, was a tiny little spot on the world’s geographic&religious map. From that broad historical perspective (2000 years are nothing in the known so far lifetime of humanity, remember Gobekli Tepe&Baalbek&PumaPunku-et-al), I’m quite cautious to declare that “the bible contains the history of the world”…while too little is know about the historical person Yeshua.

    I know that we contain the Divine Sparkle & are predestined to thrive to the Creator because that’s a common basic element that repeats throughout so many various religious believes&millenia and as such could not be biased and/or serve the interests of a specific group of people (ethnicity!! or institutional/economical oligarchy/casta). The OT&NT are just examples of man’s (strictly hebrew’s until 1st century a.d.) intent to explain that relation The Creator – man…so…if we are suspicious about deception…maybe we should challenge ALL our dogmas…

    • The bible is surely not the only history book of the world, and I only described it as such because of the context of the conversation. Throughout we find the genealogy of the kings who rule the world, then and still today. The migration of the tribes. Their bloodlines, their wars, their destruction. The Christ who came to teach and to condemn. Is it true? I can’t say 100% that as it is written, it is all ‘factual history’, as it IS my opinion ‘they’ have revised at will, anything that doesn’t fit ‘their’ narrative. I KNOW it was not only intended for a piece of land named in the 1940’s ‘Israel’. Israel / Jacob are the believers and lovers of the true DIVINE Creator. But I’ve found that the bible is a living word….history repeats itself, and if you are genuinely searching, the bible reveals their lies.

      As far as knowing more about the historical person Yeshua. I can only say this – on your spiritual path to finding truth, if and when you find yourself in the wilderness, THAT will be time you will either KNOW HIM or reject HIM.
      It doesn’t matter much to me whether or not I can read about all those lost years of Yeshua, because you may still come to the same conclusion, questioning the validity or truth of other men’s words, however, I can only speak for myself, my own spiritual experience and I have no doubt, because I have physically felt the love of the Father, and it’s not like anything anyone can really describe. It was at the darkest hour of my life when that ‘event’ took place. I think there is a spiritual knowing, and a material knowing, and there is a HUGE difference between the two. It’s why I believe maria, that you can only find ‘God’ the Father within, and I think everyone who is seriously searching for the right reason, no matter how many places you find yourself wandering thru your search, in the end, you will find the truth of His existence, or you will reject everything, and die in the desert.

    • That’s the problem with taking the bible too literally .. its not about a single group of people .. they are a model of how God chooses to interact with everyone .. although perhaps you have a better plan as to how God should speak to everyone .. maybe sit on top of a mountain with your favorite guru and conjure up your kundalini spirit .. while the rest of the world waits with baited breath to hear from on high .. your divine sparkle is now the manifestation of god on earth .. so what is your plan ?? the only problem is nobody really gives a damn

      If all you are interested in is dissecting and criticizing every literal detail you don’t understand or don’t agree with then there is no value in reading the bible and I would recommend burning it .. at least it would provide you some satisfaction .. on the other hand if you want to find value then try reading metaphorically

      Abraham heard God’s voice and left his fathers house looking for a better future not knowing where he was going .. we have difficulty leaving all that we are familiar with even though we may not be content in our present circumstances, we feel safe and secure but uncertain about venturing beyond those boundaries preferring to live in a virtual prison

      Go forth from your country,
      And from your relatives
      And from your father’s house,
      To the land which I will show you ..
      So Abram went forth as the LORD had spoken to him

      we don’t really want to hear God’s voice .. we prefer to let someone else tell us what God said ..

      Then they said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die.”

      The problem is they didn’t listen and they died in the wilderness because no one can hear God’s voice for you .. YOU need to hear God’s voice and you will live .. we don’t want to hear God’s voice for fear of what He may ask us to do .. He may ask us to slay the giants in our life and we ain’t going there .. the Word of God is empowering if you are willing to listen to His voice .. He wants to speak to you personally

      Now therefore, I pray You, if I have found favor in Your sight, let me know Your ways that I may know You, so that I may find favor in Your sight. … 14 And He said, “My presence shall go with you, and I will give you rest.” 15 Then he said to Him, “If Your presence does not go with us, do not lead us up from here. Ex 33

      For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you,” declares the LORD,

      • 🙂 Dear Rev,

        We come from totally different backgrounds&generations, Rev. You’ve been raised, if I’m not mistaken, in the RCC, adirondack &intrigued in the protestant christianity…while my upbringing was completely agnostic, limiting to atheist, although in an environment with millennial (2, since St.Paul) traditions of christianity. So our search for truth passed through different challenges but here we are agree on the most important point: to quote intrigued,
        “It’s why…that you can only find ‘God’ the Father within, and I think everyone who is seriously searching for the right reason, no matter how many places you find yourself wandering thru your search, in the end, you will find the truth of His existence”.

        🙂 nobody here discusses the existence of The Cretiator/God. What I personally question/am sceptic about is that there is ONLY ONE way to hear/reach Him. The exceptionisms/uniqueness/monopolies always open the door to dogmas & terrenal abuse of power…all things you’ve suffered from & complain about.
        you say that we do not interprete the Bible literally…so why then it’s so important the supposed Yeshua’s/Iisús’ descendant from David&Moises? why do we have to put names to the bad ones (the egypt pharaohs) and to the good ones (Moises&other hebrews prophets)? couldn’t we call them chinese/indian/innuits/whatsoever?…so how can we be so sure that when Jesus/Yeshua/Iisús (different trasliterations, the same protagonist) says, according to (I hope I won’t hurt anybody’s feelings, but we haven’t seen the live-stream video of yeshua saying that) the Gospel of John: “No one comes to the Father except through me.”…he is talking to the humanity as a whole, and not strictly to his fellow hebrews in Galilea & Jerusalem in the difficult times of the roman domination?

        According to the esoteric christianity – quite more tolerant than the official christian dogmas, both of the RCC, all Luther’s descending chr. movements & the Orthodox churches – all&each one of those result of the Nicean&later Councils (=instutionalised Pauline christianity), in Jesus the supreme Divine Principle was incarnated. It was the climax of God’s manifestations towards His creatures (the humanity), which was prepared earlier by the previous&less developed/universal messengers of God’s message (Zoroaster, Buddha, etc, etc).

        I don’t preach anything here, I am just in a continuous search for truth, knowing well that the deception could be everywhere. in the Bible (OT&NT) included.

        God bless all of you! 🙂

        • maria, “adirondack &intrigued in the protestant christianity…”

          To add for clarification. In general, I was raised by the influence of protestant tradition, but the content of my raise was mainly agnostic maria. On one side, my grandmother taught me how to meditate in being mindful of the quiet and nature. My grandfather taught me about how he did not need to go to church to know his god. The other side, is Roman Catholic, Mary, Pope, etc. Though they did not attend the RCC since my birth (had left the RCC), but they continued to have a priest come to the house when death was near for my great-grandmother, grandmother, uncle, and etc. They only thought of their need of RCC tradition during hard times, and that for them, mainly death. My father read the Bible every day nearly, but stopped attending church when I was young (meaning we all stopped attending church). We were in cults back then. I studied all the different religions, even rosario’s Indian background/influence that comes out in her understanding from time to time. I read the Upanishad and got deep into Zen and Chinese Buddhism. Also read the Daodejing numerous times. I read books on the Great Medicine Wheel and tried to follow that practice. I thought God talked to me directly at one point in my life. For nearly 75% of my life I never went to church, and that being an experience of mine only of recent compared to the whole of my life. I have compared. I read Gnostic texts, and enjoyed Shaman readings a great deal at point, too, from Mongolia, Africa, and the Americas. I went to college and hold a degree in Anthropology, so I used to be fascinated in all the Homo’s (Homo erectus, etc.). I studied the fossils of humans and animals and plants. I studied various cultures and still find cultural studies to be very interesting. That and more are the main of my learning, and it has been only recently that I took the time to study what is so special about Scripture. Mainly my questions started out with a pluralistic understanding, such as yours. There is one God and everybody comes to know Him by all the different religions and cultures around the world. Then I started to study and read of the differences, but found enough similarities to continue with that kind of thinking. Then I heard the gospel. It is different and not found in any other religion and culture on the face of the planet from ancient times to present times. It is a distinct understanding and nobody even comes close to knowing the gospel from their own religion and culture. The gospel is not there. It is a distinct understanding and message not found anywhere else. Study for yourself. Decide for yourself. But the gospel is not found anywhere else in the world but from Scripture. It is a totally and completely different teaching and way of living not found anywhere else. It really is not. Do not take only my word for it. Christianity, true Christianity, teaches something that all other religions, spiritual ways, and cultures do not teach. All the other religions, spiritual ways, and cultures at their core do teach the same thing, which is why you see how they are all connected together. You are right about that, maria. Yet none of them instruct and practice the gospel. The gospel is not merely an instruction about Jesus compared to there was a person called Buddha or Zorastianism. Or Jesus talked about love and so do all these other religions or spiritual ways. The gospel is such a basic, core understanding, that without it all the other religions and spiritual ways at their heart are the same, and at the heart of Christianity makes it totally unique and different. The gospel is so distinct in its’ essence, that it truly makes it different and not found in any other religion, spiritual ways, or culture. It is that primary and that different. All the other religions and spiritual ways at their primary core are the same. At the primary core of Christianity there is wholly another understanding than the other religions and spiritual ways. So where the other religions and spiritual ways are the same and what makes the same, Christianity differs from their “same”. They do have a “same”, but Christianity and only Christianity (true Christianity) does not share in their “same”. It offers something different, which makes it not be able to share in the “same” of others.

          It has nothing to do with tolerance either, because I think true Christianity is the true tolerance. The other religions and spiritual ways are all the same, but that does not have to mean they are therefore tolerant. That way of tolerance due to their sameness is one theory, or viewpoint, but I think there is another viable viewpoint as to define the “sameness”. Another plausible explanation is: if people do not conform to the sameness group, then the sameness group will not consider the unconformists part of their group. The sameness group, I postulate, demands conformity, which is why they are essentially the same. The sameness group has rid all differences at its’ core. Those differences are no longer to be found and known. They have been erased by their own sameness standards from their histories and worldview. The differences being eradicated are only found in certain parts of the world where the gospel still exists, which it will always exist until Christ returns when His new creation is completed.

          That is my take on it.

          • Very interesting history there! My life was quite boring compared to that 🙂

          • that was helpful, thanks.

            so do you consider your search of the truth/the Path concluded?

            “They do have a “same”, but Christianity and only Christianity (true Christianity) does not share in their “same”. It offers something different, which makes it not be able to share in the “same” of others.”

            have you considered that to be the language/way of communication which you personally find more familiar?

            “I think true Christianity is the true tolerance. The other religions and spiritual ways are all the same, but that does not have to mean they are therefore tolerant.”
            …the non-beligerant, and so tolerant by default religions are the ones to get extinct first…

            the true tolerance is the true faith in God&His light, which can be found in the hearts of the good people of any religion, imo.

            • maria, “so do you consider your search of the truth/the Path concluded?”

              I consider my search concluded, but not concluded. I will explain:

              Search concluded: The truth for me is Jesus Christ. I know the truth and need not search for the truth that is Him.

              Search not concluded: The truth of Jesus is perfect and infinite. I am not perfect and infinite. Yet we are being conformed to His image and likeness, so the conformity is goes on forever. Our image is described as maturing in true knowledge, righteousness, and holiness, so our image being renewed matures forever. This maturing of the image goes on forever, but in this life until Christ returns, the maturing involves being more and more true due to our remaining sin. In other words, the truth we know is deepened in this life. As sin is cleansed away during this lifetime, the truth we know of Christ and our conformity to the truth of Christ grows. We know it, but we know it even more each day and night.

              Higher conclusion, but still ongoing: When Christ returns we are told we will be made complete. Our maturing in true knowledge, righteousness, and holiness is complete in the sense there will be no more sin to cloud, or darken, the seed form of truth we knew. We will know the truth even more because sin will not be in the way to confuse, distract, and mislead us. Yet because God is infinitely truth, even at the return of Christ and our having no more sin, we are still not the infinite God, so we are complete at Christ’s return but will be more and more complete forever. We will still grow in the Lord, but we will do so in a complete way. It is how each day of creation God declared “it was good”, but then when He completed creation (the six days) God declared “it was very good”. It was always in a moral sense “good” and “very good”, because there was no sin. It was good and then very good, because it was complete and then very complete. The first day created was complete, but then when all of creation was complete it was even more complete.

              The idea is called “is/not-yet”. There are other places in Scripture about this idea, but here is one, “But an hour is coming, and now is… (John 4:23).” So I know the truth now, but it is still coming also. There is more to the truth that I do know now. I still learn.

              maria, “have you considered that to be the language/way of communication which you personally find more familiar?”

              Yes. Maybe others find it unfamiliar, or familiar. I could see how it would be unfamiliar for a person.

              maria, “the true tolerance is the true faith in God&His light, which can be found in the hearts of the good people of any religion, imo.”

              I thought “tolerance” was at the core of your understanding. It has to do with your pluralism. Would you say it is a core tenet of your belief?

              True tolerance is the true faith, but the core difference between true Christianity and all other ways is: Christ. Christ is God saved us. The message of Christ and what He accomplished is not found in any other way; all other ways involve man saving themselves in some form, fashion, or to some degree. This is why Roman Catholicism is not true tolerance. I need to be sensitive to the possibility that there are people who are in the Roman Catholic church who truly believe only God saves them and they can do nothing to save themselves. So I make a distinction between Roman Catholicism and those who still call themselves Roman Catholics. Yet, I am convinced if a Roman Catholic came to a critical stage of true understanding and holiness, then they would leave the Roman Catholic church.

        • maria, this is only my opinion, and a very short clip of it over the existence of the Creator God. Aside from a personal knowing of His existence – I look to nature. There must be a Creator greater than us, because yes, men can create hybrids of flowers, but they have no scent, they can create clones of animals which are usually mutants and die off quickly, robots to imitate humans made of plastic and metal with no souls, no real consciousness or spirit of life within them. They can create weather, but are most likely damaging the atmosphere doing so or creating disease to us and our ecosystem.

          Men can create the illusion of reality, as they have and still are doing, when in fact we usually find out later, it was all FAKE.

          The existence of God – men for generations have questioned the idea of a Creator, so they must have considered that he may exist, so maybe HE was pursuing them while they were trying so hard to prove he doesn’t?

          • Everything intriguedbyr said I agree with. I had mentioned above how all other ways have suppressed, erased, and eradicated the Truth. They all have lost the understanding and suppress it. They live good lives, but do not see and understand how Jesus Christ fits into the reality of all of this. How their goodness is not enough to save them. How they need what only Christ qualifies to provide. All other ways do have a requirement of being good and loving others and even do sense the divinity, but they do not know Christ and what He did in our place, something He did for us, thankfully because we are not able, which makes true Christianity fundamentally different than all other ways around the world. This is the message that is lost not only outside the church, but inside some (most?) churches this is the message that has been lost and eradicated.

            So I agree there is a common sense of divinity, a common sense of loving each other, and a common sense to do good, but that says nothing of Christ and what He did. That is the qualification I am making, thanks.

      • Excellent video, I enjoy a lot of Jordan Peterson’s work because he has so much common sense.

      • thanks, Rev.
        The common sense, which intrigued takes about and I agree on, is intrinsic to the human nature, not to a religion per se, be that the stories of the OT or of other sacred for a group of people scriptures, imo.

  39. I think that in this post especially the participants want to talk about Jesus, about their own beliefs and about some events that marked them in their lives. I also do the same, in any post of this blog, but what I tell not only affects my life or that of someone in particular, it affects all human beings in general, even if I am stuck in the center of the plot .
    I did not tell you the last thing Jesus told me when he also told me that if he could, he would return to continue the conversation, more or less, that was it: “This is something I ask of you, please: Today do not go to any other place when you leave here, go directly to your house to rest … “I had it in mind, and like every day, I wanted to do the same, but a companion supported by others, insisted that we go to a disco, and like me I refused, she tried to attack me, in fact, she assaulted me, and of course I defended myself, and I got the taxi driver to take me to my house like every day. That’s why I did not go to work the next day, but Jesus was, to leave me a message, I considered that it was better to let the spirits of the exalted ones calm down.
    Jesus loves and cares for his friends and family, he knows what is happening and he always tries to help us. Even he himself was in danger at the time, he told me that, and also, that on this occasion he had come on his own initiative. For Jesus, and for the Father, it was and is very important that my existence continue on Earth. Although sometimes I have had to move forward, crawl, as well as get out of the darkness of nothingness, and thanks to God’s help, I was able to leave, I maintain the hope of being able to fulfill my mission until the end.

    • Thanks rosario7. There are many paths and roads that lead us to Truth, whether we accept it or not is our choice, free will. Open discussion about what we’ve learned or experienced is important, sometimes people see things in a different light or actually learn how this world is not what it seems. I’m sure as you say, ‘Jesus’ knows what is happening and he always tries to help us is true, it’s the human side of him that came and experienced the deception, the hate, the evil in this world, why wouldn’t He want to help us? 🙂

      • Jesus is the creator of this world, the architect, the Son of God: Mat 3:17 … a voice from heaven said,” This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. He created a paradise that new beings would inhabit , and they would be called humans.
        How Jesus is not going to love his own beings?
        ” why wouldn’t He want to help us? ”
        But there was an angel who envied Jesus and all his work, and wanted to seize it, and began destroying that paradise, and has not stopped until today, trying to destroy everything that contains the truth and deceiving the beings of Jesus with help from his devils, the witches who serve them, and those who sell their soul out of greed and arrogance; by simple vanity.

        Matthew 10:16 – Bible Gateway “Listen, I am sending you out like sheep among wolves.” So be as smart as snakes and as innocent as doves.

        God, the Father, also speaks from Heaven, when necessary, I have heard it, and on one occasion, many saw and heard, when a devil’s henchman, from my city, tried to attack me, his fist was paralyzed and a rumble that it did not come from the earth or from the clouds rumbled down the street.
        And in spite of many other aggressions of all kinds and their synthetic drugs of specific design, I have managed to do my job.
        As a child I did not want to be a writer, because in the second year a teacher told me that I had a lot of imagination and could be a writer, and I answered that what I wrote was real, not imagination.
        But when I started to realize … I started with the trade of writing the truth in books.
        When God answered my prayers in Heaven, when I arrived there and I had not yet turned twenty, there came a time when I thought before God: who will believe a girl … alone, and without more than my naturalness. ..? Who would believe me … on Earth …?

  40. hey rev17, i actually stopped by FTM today to see if you had an update on your thoughts re: what’s happening right now in syria.

    for the most part i just skip adirondack’s comments. not because he’s a bad guy but mostly because he’s talking about things i don’t really care about. obviously for you there’s more overlap, but sometimes life’s too short to engage with people you just don’t want to engage with.

    • I really appreciate that xxx .. I actually have not paid attention to him for some time but considering the flow of my recent comments I was anticipating some blowback as I suspect he has an agenda here .. I can honestly say I relate more to you because I have a great sense where your heart is and that’s what I respect about being here .. I read all your comments eager to learn

    • rev17, “I was anticipating some blowback as I suspect he has an agenda here”

      The agenda is to share a view point, just like everybody else. I enjoy quite an array of topics on the blog, so obviously I involve myself with many topics here, which does not make me better or anything. I will not walk on egg shells when writing to rev17, because obviously in my opinion, rev17 takes things the wrong way a lot, especially when others disagree with him. rev17 you are quick to the slander for what agenda and blowback to me? Sometimes I point out from time to time where I disagree with you rev17, and then compare your view with what I consider. Not always, because God knows I can not change you, anybody else, nor myself even. That takes a Higher Power. I share and compare with everybody here. I am not targeting you rev17, you are not that special. Everybody shares with me also, but that does not make them special or me special either. It gets tough for you rev17; obviously you have things in your life you need to deal with, I would suggest, better. But so do I and everybody else.

      Well as everybody may or may not, it’s not important if you did, but off to church tomorrow, because its’ the Lord’s Day.

      LORD bless

    • re: Syria .. when I was in the Golan Heights the propaganda guide proudly revealed that Israel had Israeli generals embedded in the Syrian and Iraqi military .. that may or may not be the case but no doubt its all orchestrated for the ultimate benefit of Israel .. I keep an eye on Erdogan in that respect as the Zionist end time script unfolds to the delight of Christian Zionists recruited by Rothschilds Scofield’s bible .. these people operate with a long term plan .. I still believe Trump was chosen to build the temple and proclaiming Jerusalem the capital is the primary step .. the Greater Israel plan is based on David’s kingdom from the Nile to the Euphrates .. they are building a kingdom .. this is not nation building its empire building .. the Kingdom of God from which they intend to rule the earth .. to accomplish this they will wipe out the ancient roots of every descendant of Abraham with a legitimate claim to land .. I’m convinced they are descendants of Esau reclaiming a lost inheritance by any means necessary .. there is absolutely no distinction between the Vatican and Zionism they are Siamese twins .. interestingly muslims believe Esau was defrauded and was the legitimate heir .. Esau’s fingerprints are everywhere

      The rise of the new anti-Semitism

      “The Catholic Church’s root and trunk is Judaism and Israel,” he said.
      Stephen Colecchi, director of the Office of International Justice and Peace for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, agreed. The Jews “are our forebears in the faith, and we believe they are chosen by God, and that choice was not revoked when Jesus came and established a new covenant.”

      http://legatus.org/the-rise-of-the-new-anti-semitism/

      The New Exodus

      http://legatus.org/the-new-exodus/

      American Plutocrats Take the Vatican
      https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2013/09/15/1237256/-American-Plutocrats-Take-the-Vatican

      • “http://legatus.org/the-new-exodus/ The New Exodus”
        The Christian churches in any country of the world, Christian or Muslim, do not differ from the Vatican church, are invaded by the devils of lucifer, I know from my own experience, and they are enslaving poor deceived nuns who do not know where to go anymore and they help the poor when they can, poor people born in any religion, who are used by these ministers and mothers superiors of lucifer in the Christian churches with terrible objectives.
        “The wheat and the tares …” we are growing together.
        Matthew 13: 24-52 New International Version (NIV)
        Parable of the wheat and the tares
        the Qur’an speaks of Jesus, of his Mother, and of the archangel Gabriel, and any Muslim who has read it knows that Jesus will return to Earth to do the Father’s Justice. But then we will all have to return before the presence of the Father. Everyone, and I say it because God Father told me so.

        • https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d670886796d6d782823051717e8111d3-c

          A Couple Of Serious Questions About The Roman Catholic Church
          https://steemit.com/truth/@eddard/ned-stark-poses-a-couple-of-serious-questions-about-the-roman-catholic-church

        • The Dark Secrets Behind The Pope’s Audience Hall

          http://www.collective-evolution.com/2017/11/17/the-dark-secrets-behind-the-popes-audience-hall-its-a-giant-reptilian/

          • Both Muslims and Christians, like those of any religion, are being manipulated by the leaders who run the congregations. there, where I went, I saw the same system. I was in the Vatican, I saw many things, although not the Sistine Chapel or the Museum of Jewelry, and I was persecuted and the persecutor ended up talking to me. in Morocco it’s the same, in London I was even invited to a party of the same lucifer, although it was all a hoax that did not seem to have anything to do with something like that, and as I skipped all its rules, the same lucifer shouted at me to stop, without being seen, with his, tenebrous, thought, straight to my mind. and I also saw things in the Hare Krishna Temple in London, things that I liked, like certain people, the delicious vegetarian food they make, but many other things do not. the true manipulation, the most sinister, is in what they pretend to be hidden and blurred.
            people who do not understand what happens in the background, it is very easy to be at the mercy of the manipulators. to see reality, it must be deepened.

            • “…Christians, like those of any religion, are being manipulated by the leaders who run the congregations.”

              The true leaders of the congregations are disciples of Christ. They do not manipulate the congregations. I saw nothing nefarious at church yesterday. We heard God call us to worship (His written Word was read). There were multiple prayers. We sang Psalms 138, 78, 105, and 108. The preacher read from Joshua 18-19 and the sermon was about that passage in Scripture. That was the morning worship service. There is an evening worship service.

              Singing God’s Word, praying, and taking the time to mediate upon the words in Joshua 18-19 is not manipulation.

              • He wanted to throw me out of the church on the day of my first communion, from the pulpit the priest declared it with anger, simply because I laughed, and it seemed wonderful to me that a pigeon entered and flew through the high ceilings to the front of the altar, The dove returned to the entrance and then a few more entered and did the same. I was told that you had to be pure to talk to God, and for that you had to do the first communion in the church. I was six years old and for a long time I wanted to talk to God. The next Sunday I was tricked and instead of going to church I fell asleep and had a dream, and with this dream I realized that I did not need to go to church to talk to God. and I was happy because sometimes I saw things that I did not like about churches and convents. Through life I had more experiences that told me the same thing.
                If you go to the Vatican and you identify with what is there, you are like them, if you do not identify with it, then the provable thing is that you follow the path of Jesus.
                Some priests who went to see the Basilica of St. Peter left the habits. And I have seen nuns and friars disappear … by order of the superiors, and some, because he realized what was happening inside … everything contrary to the message of Jesus. THEY do not mention the crimes and the aberrations before the unsuspecting faithful in the churches, they do it where they only see them … and the victims … although perhaps some victims only see the end, between the darkness of potions and drugs synthetic

                • yes, that happens inside and outside what is called the church. Or put another way, that happens inside and outside of the civil magistrate. The true church congregates to worship God, because they have faith, and are called by God “the body of Christ” really, but not literally. Christ is the Head and faithful worshippers are His body.

                  • Out here everything is quite scary … quite scary, but in there it does not give less.
                    God bless you.
                    God also told me in Heaven: When you realize what is happening, you can tell everything.
                    although when I remembered that phrase, I think I was already … I do not remember now if I had already started writing the fourth book.
                    I leave a link if you want to take a look at real life, for the Earth among the best, the worst, and those in the middle: › Visit Amazon’s María del Rosario Cordero Tesón Page
                    http://www.amazon.com/-/e/B00CPMFAPQ

          • https://seeker401.wordpress.com/2017/01/15/images-15117/

            its a snake..hidden in plain sight..

        • “The Christian churches in any country of the world, Christian or Muslim, do not differ from the Vatican church, are invaded by the devils of lucifer, I know from my own experience”

          Of course churches are invaded by the devils of Lucifer. Outside of church is invaded by the devils of Lucifer, too. The church is invaded, but the true church is not the devils of Lucifer. I know from my own experience.

          The church, which is the not the brick and mortar, are all believers from the beginning of time until Christ returns. The church are people who have faith in Him, and because they have faith in Him the church gathers to worship He who is the sinless and incorruptible God-man named Jesus Christ. Jesus identifies with worshippers in calling them His body (Colossians 1:18). The church really, but not literally, is His body, so believers are not the invaders called the devils of Lucifer. Jesus is not the devils of Lucifer.

      • thanks rev.

      • Great find on the Exodus! Legatus is important, the big money lay people, very nice Rev.

      • “At the time of Operation Desert Storm in 1991, Iraq was home to 1.3 million Christians; today there are less than 200,000, according to Michael La Civita of the Catholic Near East Welfare Agency (CNEWA). “Since the 2004 insurrection in Iraq, there has been a rise of extremist groups. ”

        thanks PNAC& Clean Break-a-strategy-for-new-realm!…

  41. in your face

  42. curious how the history repeats:

    “The Middle East is experiencing a new kind of exodus. This time it’s Christians who are leaving the region in droves, driven out by Muslim fundamentalists. Christians make up less than 5% of the population today, down from 20% in the early 20th century, according to a 2010 BBC report.”
    …what the BBC does not tell you is that prior to WWI there were lot more christians than with the fall of the Ottoman empire…

    (read the notes on the right)

    • that’s great info Maria .. it should be noted Abraham had nine son’s with two wives and two concubines .. each received land grants

      Hagar Ishmael
      Sarah Isaac
      Keturah Joktan Yisbak Midian Zimran Medan Shuah
      Masek Eliezar

      Two Kings and Two Kingdoms

      Abraham married according to the pattern of his Kushite royal ancestors. These kings had two wives. One was a half-sister (as was Sarah to Abraham) and the other was a patrilineal cousin or niece (as was Keturah to Abraham). Analysis of the Genesis genealogical data indicates that the firstborn son of the cousin/niece wife ascended to the throne of his maternal grandfather. This is indicated by the consistent pattern of the cousin bride naming her firstborn son after her father. So Lamech (Gen. 5), the firstborn of Methuselah, was named after his mother’s father, Lamech the Elder (Gen. 4). Joktan, the firstborn son of Keturah, was named after Keturah’s father Joktan. Esau, the husband of Oholibamah (Gen. 36), was named after his maternal grandfather Esau the Elder, the son of Isaac (Yitzak).

      The firstborn son of the half-sister wife ascended to the throne of his biological father. Isaac was Abraham’s proper heir and ruled after him. Genesis tells us that Abraham’s other sons were given their inheritance and sent away from the territory of Isaac. This is not entirely accurate. Other sons often served as viziers in the territories of their ruling brothers. Indeed, there is much evidence that the men listed in the Horite King lists either ruled over territories or served as high ranking persons in the territories of their siblings or maternal grandfathers. Those who did not, were sent away to establish kingdoms of their own. Most of the heroes of the Old Testament were sent-away sons: Cain, Nimrod, Abraham, Moses, and David are examples.

      This is the dynamic which drove the Kushite expansion out of the Nile Valley so that Kushite rulers controlled the great water systems of the ancient Afro-Asiatic Dominion. Raamah and Nimrod ruled separate territories that had once been united under their father Kush. Asshur and Arpachshad ruled separate territories that had once been united under their father Shem. Likewise, Peleg and Joktan ruled separate territories that had once been unified under their father Eber.

      Firstborn Sons of Concubines

      Had Sarah remained without a son, the rightful heir to Abraham’s throne would have been Eliezar (Gen. 15). The Masoretic and Greek texts do not agree on Eliezer. The Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) clearly states that he was a son of Abraham by Masek, but this is not found in the Masoretic text. This suggests a peculiar characteristic of this unique kinship pattern: the assignment of territories to the firstborn sons of concubines. If the pattern of Hagar and Masek is like the pattern of Bilhah and Zilpah, then Yismael and Eliezar received lands/settlements to govern and were included as tribal heads along with Joktan, Yitzak, Yisbak, Midian, Medan, Zimran and Shuah.

      Concerning Ishmael, his assignment of a settlement in or near Paran on the way to Egypt is indicated by these words: This is the genealogy of Ishmael, Abraham’s son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah’s maidservant, bore to Abraham. And these were the names of the sons of Ishmael: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth, then Kadar, Adbeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadar, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. These were the sons of Ishmael and these were their names, by their towns and settlements… (Genesis 25:12-16).

      So it appears that firstborn sons of wives ruled territories and firstborn sons of concubines ruled cities or settlements as regional rulers in obedience to their brother Kings. This is similar to the “nomes” of Egypt, each ruled separately by a tribal chieftain. This sheds light on the relationship between Jacob’s sons and can help us to understand the apportionment of land and settlements to their descendants.

      http://jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/2011/03/abrahams-sons.html

    • Abraham’s Two Concubines

      God established Abraham as a ruler in Canaan, the land over which his mother’s people ruled. The northern and southern boundaries of Abraham’s territory were marked by the settlements of his two wives. Sarah dwelt in Hebron and Keturah dwelt in Beer-sheba to the south. Abraham’s wives bore him 7 sons. Daughters were born also, though they are not named in the Bible. Abraham’s sons married these daughters and the daughters of Na-hor, Abraham’s older brother.

      Sons were born to Abraham by concubine servants as well. Ishmael, was born of Hagar and, according to the Septuagint, Eliezar of Damascus was born of Masek. In the New Jerusalem Bible (following the Vulgate) Abraham says to the Lord: “Since you have given me no offspring… a member of my household will be my heir.” The Septuagint offers this: “What will you give me, seeing I go childless and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus, the son of Masek, my domestic maidservant.” Eliezar as a son of Abraham by a maidservant, parallels the story of Hagar. This means that Abraham had 9 sons: Ishmael, Eliezer, Isaac, Joktan, Zimram, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah. There were also daughters. Clearly, God fulfilled His sovereign will concerning Abraham that he should be the “Father of a multitude”.

      Hagar and Masek are to Abraham’s household what the concubines Zilpah and Bilhah are to Jacob’s household. They built up the ruling houses of these patriarchs by producing many offspring. If the biblical pattern is to be trusted, we may reasonably suspect that Hagar and Masek were the servants of Sarah and Keturah, just as Zilpah was the servant of Leah and Bilhah the servant of Rachel (Gen. 30). That Masek was Keturah’s servant is supported by the fact that the name Masek is still found among the south Arabian Mahra. They dwell in Yemen, Oman and southern Saudi Arabia (see map). This is where we would expect to find the descendents of Abaham by Keturah’s servant Masek.

      Some Mahra/Masek are semi-nomadic and others are settled in small semi-fortified villages where they farm and raise chickens for eggs and goats for milk. They are known to aggressively defend their territories and water sources and are regarded as belonging to the warrior caste. Their chiefs control the goods and persons who pass through their lands.

      The Mahra/Masek are an endogamous tribe, which means that they exclusively marry within their kinship circle. Most men have only one wife, but the chief may have more than one. Children receive inheritances patrilineally, with the first-born son receiving the lion’s share. Young girls are valued for childbearing and for the bonding of families through marriage. This was especially true in Abraham’s time for both wives and concubines.

  43. SANHEDRIN AND TEMPLE MOVEMENT ISSUE SILVER HALF SHEKEL WITH IMAGES OF TRUMP AND CYRUS

    https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/102784/sanhedrin-temple-movement-issue-silver-half-shekel-images-trump-cyrus/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork#/

  44. Examining ‘Ten Myths about Israel’, by Ilan Pappe

    http://mondoweiss.net/2018/01/examining-myths-israel/

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